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The War ISIS Wants

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Re: The War ISIS Wants

#81

Post by lagudragu »

kuschku wrote: post #63
Amezarak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Beyond the complete lack of humanity in the outlook that we are like barrels of brent, it's simply wrong. Indeed. And there seems, to me, to be something nihilistic in the idea that Europeans should simply let immigrants replace them. Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate. The article appears to be implying…

> Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate. So, 18 months maternity/paternity leave, 180€ per month per child you have, plus tax breaks, plus better credit rating, plus 12 more sick days a year, plus subsidized kindergarten and daycare (with guaranteed daycare place from age 3 on), cheap whole-day school for chi…

These are mostly economical solutions. The problem however seems to be on a sociographic level.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#82

Post by enlightenedfool »

Borogravia wrote: post #77
macspoofing wrote: post #30

... and they hope that this war results in the outcome they envision - which is some utopia that the Muslim world unites against the crusading threat and a caliphate is established? But they are human and they are perfectly fallible. And maybe force is necessary. In an ideal world, this is when a multi-national force under the UN banner is actually warranted. By the way this is the exact situation that American after…

>That one is on Obama Well, no. Bush had a glorious, golden opportunity in the wake of 9/11 to turn this huge wave of international goodwill into something that could have actually made the world a safer place. Instead, he did precisely what the terrorists hoped he would do - Bush not only invaded Afghanistan, he lied the country into a breathtakingly stupid and pointless war with Iraq, single-handedly destabilizing…

So, are you saying that what Bush started is incorrigible? Perhaps not. If only the politicians have a will to take the right path. Obama clearly doesn't have it.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#83

Post by blisterpeanuts »

return0 wrote: post #67
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

These terrorist groups are becoming a recurring thing though, a failed one is replaced by another. They are aided by technology that allows inflicting powerful hits and of course by money from their patrons. The question is if there is something more than just extremism here, what is the failure of the western secularity to become attractive and engulf immigrants and whether this is phenomenon can spring up on its ow…

"Universal condemnation" is precisely what they're seeking. The more notoriety, the better. Hence, pushing gay men off of buildings and drowning men in cages (with underwater cameras filming). They are seeking street cred, a rep, a mystique of fear.

Condemnation doesn't work. What does work is a combination of excellent police work in routing out cells of recruiters and operators, and precise, devastating bombing raids followed by boots on the ground to protect and empower the civilians, most of whom would never support these psychopaths by choice.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#84

Post by rjaco31 »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #69
return0 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"of all creeds" As you quoted yourself, this is among all creeds, not among muslims. France has larger muslim population than germany or GB that were in the same survey, yet this still does not explain the huge difference in youths actually supporting daesh. So, its fair to say that french youth in general is disillusioned. Also note that this was before charlie hebdo and the recent attack, not sure how the non-musli…

> So, its fair to say that french youth in general is disillusioned. The French economy is moribund, growth is nil, youth unemployment rates are over 25%, and lots of them are sitting around unemployed or in dead-end jobs - while their parents hold much cushier jobs with some of the world's best labor protections (or most-notorious, depending on your perspective). It's not shocking.

That makes you want to get a job or raise unemployment subsidies, not go kill people in the street..

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#85

Post by kefka »

gregjwild wrote: post #13
kefka wrote: post #4

So, it seems that the only way to fight this was is to change their minds by asking assistance from the peaceful Muslim groups. We can discriminate Daesh and Muslims, and that only shows the monsters they say we are. We can bomb Daesh, which only encourages more to join their cause. Worst case, we can nuke the whole area of Iraq and Syria where Daesh has power, and that would only show every Muslim in the world that…

> It has to start from the ground, with 'militant moderate Muslims' willing to show people another way; one that does not involve in slavery, beheadings, suicide bombings, and crucifixion. Problem with this is that the most prominent moderate Islamist organization, the Muslim Brotherhood, was utterly smashed by the military counter-coup in Egypt. To many Islamists, it seemed to prove that a political route to power w…

> Though I agree that we have to bridge the gap. The us vs. them rhetoric is toxic.

Indeed. However, it is "Western culture vs ISIS". The other part is that it's also "Other Muslims vs ISIS" along with "Muslim countries vs ISIS". ISIS dictates that they are indeed bent for world domination, as much absurd as that seems.

But ISIS acts like Anonymous with a country. Yeah, you can nuke the land and kill millions of people. But they're still going to be in Europe, North America, Asia, and everywhere else... and the extreme tactics will only encourage more to join the cause.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#86

Post by rjaco31 »

asgard1024 wrote: post #17
omginternets wrote: post #6

It's not that I disagree with the points brought up by this article (how could I! We've known these things to be true for years!), but I'm worried about the leap that people make, namely that military action isn't necessary. It's hard to imagine any effective strategy that doesn't involve killing people in Syria. It's disgusting, necessary, and -- I willingly admit -- not sufficient.

> It's hard to imagine any effective strategy that doesn't involve killing people I disagree, one is actually described in the article: "[For] the youth of the nation are closer to the innate nature [of humans] on account of the rebelliousness within them." Do you think capitalism/democracy/whatever mix we have in the West does a good job of preventing these people fighting for "Jihad"? We don't really give young peo…

Well, Robert A. Heinlein took the problem by the other end in Starship Troopers, military service is not mandatory, but required to be able to vote. So the only people that might be capable to rebel are eventually the only ones that won't.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#87

Post by ceejayoz »

rjaco31 wrote: post #84
fennecfoxen wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, its fair to say that french youth in general is disillusioned. The French economy is moribund, growth is nil, youth unemployment rates are over 25%, and lots of them are sitting around unemployed or in dead-end jobs - while their parents hold much cushier jobs with some of the world's best labor protections (or most-notorious, depending on your perspective). It's not shocking.

That makes you want to get a job or raise unemployment subsidies, not go kill people in the street..

With 25% youth unemployment, wanting to get a job doesn't mean getting a job. People give up after a while, and the resulting desperation is dangerous.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#88

Post by carlob »

[deleted] wrote: post #65
carlob wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you saying that because some have made it marginalization is not a thing? Of course its causes are also cultural, that is exactly my point: we need to find cultural answers to this. Your argument smells a lot like the self-made-man American myth. Just because some have made it out of poverty, often in different conditions than these, doesn't mean we don't have to fight poverty because everyone who is smart eno…

[deleted]

Well… I don't know how to say this: but if at first it sounded hollow, this talk of ethnic subgroups and culture makes it sound rather racist.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#89

Post by asgard1024 »

[deleted] wrote: post #65
carlob wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you saying that because some have made it marginalization is not a thing? Of course its causes are also cultural, that is exactly my point: we need to find cultural answers to this. Your argument smells a lot like the self-made-man American myth. Just because some have made it out of poverty, often in different conditions than these, doesn't mean we don't have to fight poverty because everyone who is smart eno…

[deleted]

I think you are assuming consciousness (of the group) where can be none.

Shouldn't be in the interest of the majority to make sure that minorities are not marginalized?

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#90

Post by RobertoG »

bresc wrote: post #73
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

Radical Islam is not solely a response to western influence. It sure is also that, but it is also due to the ideology of the islam itself and the failure to modernise it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_war | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_modernity

I agree with this. We shouldn't forget that Muhammad was basically a military leader.

Anyway, we are in danger that this narrative and others similar becomes the only explanation in the mainstream media, instead of only a factor that probably is not very relevant. After all, the majority of Muslims don't believe that they should go to war with other countries.

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