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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#221
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too If that's your contention then you'd need to account for the high terrorist attack output of Islamists vs other non-Islam subscribers.

That's an open door, I don't need to kick it in. It simply revolves around how you define terrorist and that horse has been beaten to death by now, I really don't see any reason to revive it just to beat it to death again.

Wow, that's a complete cop out. Can you come up with any definition of "terrorist" where significant numbers of the one billion Chinese are commiting terrorist atrocities abroad, for example?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#222

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

If you're open to discussion I'd like a word less on the tenants of Christianity but more on the experience. Many highly conservative Christians are portrayed as angry, blind, even openly judgemental and rude. E.g. I read an article on NYT discussing some conservative Christians talking about how all gays need to be put to death. Do you feel judgemental or upset when people exist that are very wrong according to your…

> Do you feel judgemental or upset when people exist that are very wrong according to your morality?

No. Something I stil haven't found a way to explain is that I can disagree with someone or even think that someone's very personal decision is not a good one without feeling ill will towards them.

One of the fundamental teachings of christianity that many non-christians (and some christians even) are not aware of is that a person does not need to be good to be a believer. A person who is convicted by god to believe in him IS good. So if every person on earth suddenly agreed with me and other christians on moral issues it would be a hollow victory without those people also understanding Gods love for them.

So I do not focus my efforts on moralizing the world or turning it into a theocracy. I focus my efforts on being an example of Gods love to those around me. I cannot fathom that someone who is truly gripped by their faith would wish death upon anyone. To me, whatever those people say, they need to be converted as much as anyone else.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#223

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

If you're open to discussion I'd like a word less on the tenants of Christianity but more on the experience. Many highly conservative Christians are portrayed as angry, blind, even openly judgemental and rude. E.g. I read an article on NYT discussing some conservative Christians talking about how all gays need to be put to death. Do you feel judgemental or upset when people exist that are very wrong according to your…

> some conservative Christians talking about how all gays need to be put to death

I live in the deep south and have never heard such viewpoints from a Christian.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#224
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am pretty angry about what is going on in world , so if you felt insulted , I am so sorry , and You should understand I don't want to insult you or any other person specifically,But I want insult Ideologies pretty badly. As person who LIVES in heart of middle east (Iran) and I have seen shia militant from very close(I know people who works in IRGC),You are completely and pure wrong , do you know what would generate a…

More and more of the West are wanting to just pull out and "let them all kill each other", but that seems a little cruel doesn't it? Damned if you do damned if you don't.

[deleted]

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#225
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am pretty angry about what is going on in world , so if you felt insulted , I am so sorry , and You should understand I don't want to insult you or any other person specifically,But I want insult Ideologies pretty badly. As person who LIVES in heart of middle east (Iran) and I have seen shia militant from very close(I know people who works in IRGC),You are completely and pure wrong , do you know what would generate a…

More and more of the West are wanting to just pull out and "let them all kill each other", but that seems a little cruel doesn't it? Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Personally I think cruelty or compassion don't have place in this kind of calculation. We are calculation about faith of maybe million's of million's people.What is best for all of us ? What is best for humanity ? fucking around in middle east and randomly bombing some dude's which may or may not thinking about attacking west or end this non sense and let middle east to fight for himself.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

> they would like to change society to suit their ends. What would be those means employed by non-Muslim radicals to effect social change? I'm inclined to say that urban warfare and terrorizing an entire population with open aggression tactics are not among them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Underground

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktoberfest_terror_attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army

All these are fairly recent examples of non-Muslim radicals attempting to effect social change by the same means Muslim radicals use to try and effect such change in Western countries. That they have not succeeded in building a near-nation state out of that terrorism is largely due to the higher stability of “Western” countries compared to the middle east, though, depending on whom you ask, they were quite successful in Ukraine.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#228
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a counter-point let me ask a non-religious person, > what makes an act good? You might be interested in reading The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris for an in-depth start at an answer to that question. It's a secular look at morality and how we can reason about morality without a foundation of unscientific ideas (e.g. the existence of a deity). In essence it makes the point that the religious idea of morality drive…

> He essentially defines an act as "good" if it's a net increase in human happiness and well-being That seems a very poor and weak definition. 1. It focuses on human as only a human can be happy. 2. net increase is relative, so this is relative to the author's life/view of the world. 3. Well-being doesn't mean anything. Does he defines it too?

    > That seems a very poor and weak definition.
It's not the definition. It's my poor recollection of a book I read over a year ago for the purposes of a HN comment. I'm not trying to establish some all-encompassing holistic definition of morality right here in this comment chain.

I'm just replying to the religious OP (@cmdkeen) that if he's interested in what secular people have to say on the subject of morality there's a lot written on that subject. I found Sam Harris's book on it interesting, but it's certainly not the first or the last word on a secular definition of morality.

Having said that I'll elaborate a bit more on my poor recollection of the book.

    > 1. It focuses on human as only a human can be happy.
I think for the purposes of the book, yes, but there's nothing intrinsic about his idea of morality that's isolated to Homo Sapiens. If you wanted to maximize human and canine happiness you could do that too to some degree.

    > 2. net increase is relative, so this is relative to the author's life/view of the world.
    > 3. Well-being doesn't mean anything. Does he defines it too?
He argues that this largely isn't the case.

The basic idea he's putting forth is that there's actions you can perform which will make people happy (e.g. being nice to them) and sad (e.g. subjecting them to genocide).

Obviously this is not a single-axis spectrum. So he's setting forth the argument that happiness can be attained similarly to how we maximize the performance of a hill-climbing algorithm.

If we were in real-time able to monitor the net happiness of every human (and also animals, if you insist) and tweak our societies so that net happiness would go up we'd arrive at a moral society.

So thus we can say that some societies are more moral than others. E.g. every modern western state would be morally superior to the Mongol empire by this happiness ratio we can say the society is "better", and once we have a metric we can work to maximize happiness in our own societies.

I think the main hole someone who's religious would poke in this would be "but that's not morality, you're just optimizing for hedonism!". I think to some degree that's true, but from what I've read of secular literature on the subject the idea of "morality" is pretty much discredited.

It's based on the notion of absolutes, usually handed down by some deity. Once you get rid of that (because deities don't exist) what do you replace it with? Some combination of "don't do harm" and "let's make everyone happy" most likely.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#229
post #64

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

Of course it's not "all Muslisms". But those who claim "it's only the terrorists" or "it's all politics" do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society (which in principle represents nations with a tot…

Yeah, well. I think the key word is naïve.

There's a mosque around the corner from where I live, and a lot of people called Mohamed and Hilay and so on live in the area. Few of them visit that mosque, so if your extrapolation were right, there should be a considerable number of murdered apostates. Which there isn't.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#230
post #6

> They control large areas of land, have their own oil fields, and receive direct support from many countries in the region. Namely from rich oil-producing countries. That's one of those things where we could make a fairly immediate change in policy, it would come at a cost, definitely but it would change the situation for IS for the worse far more effectively than any number of bombs dropped would do.

Weapons, food, training cost a lot of money. So who are giving so much money to ISIS?
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