The War ISIS Wants • Hacker News Board

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#61

Post by scotty79 » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:52 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

> Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries.

Contemporary radical Islam is brewing just for one (young) generation and is result of applying western individual freedom and reason to principles of Islam.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/18b/reason_as_memetic_immune_disorde...

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#62

Post by jordanpg » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

How could it be that there are people in the world who, on the one hand, post videos on YouTube, and on the other, believe things about the universe that are manifestly and self-evidently false? (Yes, I'm referring to all religions here.)

Religion -- all religion -- is so obviously nonsense, and yet the human race goes on and on and on, having endless tortured discussions about the earthly consequences of religious tenets, with a straight face.

How can we even begin to address these problems when all religious viewpoints are considered with an air of seriousness and profundity? On what ground do we (non-"holy warriors") stand when we say their viewpoint is wrong? None, so long as any religious viewpoint is taken seriously.

There is only one proper response to this and that is to make damn sure that I laugh religious people out of the room whenever possible.

Let us stop playing games and acknowledge that so long as grownups are considering religious viewpoints alongside secular ones when making important decisions, we will get absolutely nowhere.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#63

Post by kuschku » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

Amezarak wrote: post #15

blfr wrote: post #3

The fact that the EU’s replacement rate is 1.59 children per couple and the continent needs substantial levels of immigration to maintain a productive workforce The idea here is that all people are the same, and all you need to do is shoehorn enough to keep the economy going. Beyond the complete lack of humanity in the outlook that we are like barrels of brent, it's simply wrong. If this was the case, the entire worl…

> Beyond the complete lack of humanity in the outlook that we are like barrels of brent, it's simply wrong. Indeed. And there seems, to me, to be something nihilistic in the idea that Europeans should simply let immigrants replace them. Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate. The article appears to be implying…

> Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate.

So, 18 months maternity/paternity leave, 180€ per month per child you have, plus tax breaks, plus better credit rating, plus 12 more sick days a year, plus subsidized kindergarten and daycare (with guaranteed daycare place from age 3 on), cheap whole-day school for children, and after-school care for them, is not enough?

What else are we supposed to do? Seriously? We have all this, and still birth rates below 1.2 children in Germany. Seriously.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#64

Post by vezzy-fnord » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:54 PM UTC

kbart wrote: post #35

"A July 2014 poll by ICM Research suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable opinion of ISIS . Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews with young people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris banlieues we found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among young people " Despite…

Some 50% of Russians have favorable opinions about Stalin. Such statistics are not in of themselves worrying, unless you have reason to believe they can't compartmentalize.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#65

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:55 PM UTC

carlob wrote: post #41

[deleted] wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

So are you saying that because some have made it marginalization is not a thing? Of course its causes are also cultural, that is exactly my point: we need to find cultural answers to this. Your argument smells a lot like the self-made-man American myth. Just because some have made it out of poverty, often in different conditions than these, doesn't mean we don't have to fight poverty because everyone who is smart eno…

[deleted]

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#66

Post by ekianjo » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:56 PM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #57

Have you read George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf? I think it gets to the heart of why ISIS is so popular. "Also [Hitler] has grasped the falsity of the hedonistic attitude to life. Nearly all western thought since the last war, certainly all "progressive" thought, has assumed tacitly that human beings desire nothing beyond ease, security and avoidance of pain... Hitler, because in his joyless mind he feels it with…

> In fact, it is made even emotionally stronger now that it is religious. Is there an alternative?

ISIS does not rely on free choice, it relies on brainwashing kids since from the get-go. That's really not the same.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#67

Post by return0 » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:57 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

These terrorist groups are becoming a recurring thing though, a failed one is replaced by another. They are aided by technology that allows inflicting powerful hits and of course by money from their patrons. The question is if there is something more than just extremism here, what is the failure of the western secularity to become attractive and engulf immigrants and whether this is phenomenon can spring up on its own or its dependent on someone funding it.

Hitting them with bombs can only achieve so much and should be just one step in many to understand this phenomenon. I do think that this attack in particular has seen so universal condemnation, (largely because France is not regarded as a major invading force like the US or NATO are), that it's actually going to hurt ISIS reputation, probably fatally. OTOH destroying them doesn't seem to be the end of the story...

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#68

Post by vezzy-fnord » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:57 PM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #20

acjohnson55 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also hard to imagine how such killing doesn't simply fertilize the soil of radicalization.

It's also hard to imagine how not killing doesn't facilitate the vile activities of daesh. I swear this is the late 1930's all over again. "Surely Herr Hitler will get tired of invading countries before he gets to France. Surely military action will only anger him more..."

ISIS and the NSDAP are not even close to being similar geopolitical entities.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#69

Post by fennecfoxen » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:00 PM UTC

return0 wrote: post #50

kbart wrote: post #35

"A July 2014 poll by ICM Research suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable opinion of ISIS . Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews with young people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris banlieues we found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among young people " Despite…

"of all creeds" As you quoted yourself, this is among all creeds, not among muslims. France has larger muslim population than germany or GB that were in the same survey, yet this still does not explain the huge difference in youths actually supporting daesh. So, its fair to say that french youth in general is disillusioned. Also note that this was before charlie hebdo and the recent attack, not sure how the non-musli…

> So, its fair to say that french youth in general is disillusioned.

The French economy is moribund, growth is nil, youth unemployment rates are over 25%, and lots of them are sitting around unemployed or in dead-end jobs - while their parents hold much cushier jobs with some of the world's best labor protections (or most-notorious, depending on your perspective). It's not shocking.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#70

Post by enlightenedfool » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 2:00 PM UTC

jordanpg wrote: post #62

How could it be that there are people in the world who, on the one hand, post videos on YouTube, and on the other, believe things about the universe that are manifestly and self-evidently false? (Yes, I'm referring to all religions here.) Religion -- all religion -- is so obviously nonsense, and yet the human race goes on and on and on, having endless tortured discussions about the earthly consequences of religious t…

"There is only one proper response to this and that is to make damn sure that I laugh religious people out of the room whenever possible." That approach has proven to not work. Didn't you realize that the "religious people" would do the same to you? Their reality is different from yours.