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The War ISIS Wants

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Re: The War ISIS Wants

#51

Post by largesse »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

Michel Houellebecq alludes to an interesting idea in his novel Soumission - in the hierarchy that the West is using for identity politics, race and religion are less touchable than women’s rights and gender equality. The West will not criticize muslim culture with its implicit patriarchy and unequal treatment because they are the underdogs. Everything I see indicates that this is true especially in the UK. The question is how far accepts and lack of criticism will go before rights that we consider sacrosanct in the West are eroded by demographics in Europe.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#52

Post by return0 »

nightspirit wrote: post #48
vanderhosen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be ignoring the "all creeds" portion of that quote.

This is what you get following link in the article: An ICM poll on behalf of the Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya tested the awareness of the group ISIS (previously known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Levant), in three European nations; Great Britain, France and Germany. The poll revealed that overall 2% and 7% say they are very favourable and somewhat favourable towards ISIS but a greater 26% and 43% are some…

This is the poll they refer to, if you scroll down to the isis question, it's 27% among french 18-24.

http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/New-EU-Comb.pdf

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#53

Post by pythonlion »

icebraining wrote: post #37
pythonlion wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what you said its all true but there are out there already some fanatics who wants to kill you, they can. and they did, and i don't know how many more life should be letting to "statistic danger", in the various places of the world. its really hard to calculate, really.. i don't know.

Just for perspective, more people die on the roads of France every two weeks than have died in this attack. (By the way, if you think I'm diminishing the tragedy of these deaths, aren't you diminishing the tragedy that are road fatalities?)

drone technology will solve that too.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#54

Post by mi3law »

RobertoG wrote: post #46
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

I find your comment very relevant and I agree with all of it but I miss some references to the influence of not Levant nations in all this mess. To your comments I would like to add: the Russians invading Afghanistan, the CIA arming and training of all kind of "rebels", the invasion of Irak, the protection of the House of Saud by the EUA, the interest of Israel in being the only strong nation in the area, the support…

Thank you for mentioning this. I'm very disappointed that many in the HN crowd seem ignorant of these very relevant events (from the comments).

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#55

Post by mi3law »

RobertoG wrote: post #46
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

I find your comment very relevant and I agree with all of it but I miss some references to the influence of not Levant nations in all this mess. To your comments I would like to add: the Russians invading Afghanistan, the CIA arming and training of all kind of "rebels", the invasion of Irak, the protection of the House of Saud by the EUA, the interest of Israel in being the only strong nation in the area, the support…

Thank you for mentioning this. I'm very disappointed that many in the HN crowd seem ignorant of these very relevant events (from the comments).

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#56

Post by eli_gottlieb »

Amezarak wrote: post #15
blfr wrote: post #3

The fact that the EU’s replacement rate is 1.59 children per couple and the continent needs substantial levels of immigration to maintain a productive workforce The idea here is that all people are the same, and all you need to do is shoehorn enough to keep the economy going. Beyond the complete lack of humanity in the outlook that we are like barrels of brent, it's simply wrong. If this was the case, the entire worl…

> Beyond the complete lack of humanity in the outlook that we are like barrels of brent, it's simply wrong. Indeed. And there seems, to me, to be something nihilistic in the idea that Europeans should simply let immigrants replace them. Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate. The article appears to be implying…

>Indeed. And there seems, to me, to be something nihilistic in the idea that Europeans should simply let immigrants replace them. Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate.

That would require blaspheming against the Austerity Gods.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#57

Post by littletimmy »

Have you read George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf? I think it gets to the heart of why ISIS is so popular.

"Also [Hitler] has grasped the falsity of the hedonistic attitude to life. Nearly all western thought since the last war, certainly all "progressive" thought, has assumed tacitly that human beings desire nothing beyond ease, security and avoidance of pain... Hitler, because in his joyless mind he feels it with exceptional strength, knows that human beings don't only want comfort, safety, short working hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense, they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades... Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people "I offer you a good time," Hitler has said to them "I offer you struggle, danger and death," and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet."

Replace Hitler with ISIS, and the point still stands. In fact, it is made even emotionally stronger now that it is religious. Is there an alternative? Can capitalist democracy provide any greater meaning in life?

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#58

Post by RobertoG »

kbart wrote: post #35

"A July 2014 poll by ICM Research suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable opinion of ISIS . Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews with young people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris banlieues we found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among young people " Despite…

I had the chance to talk with a ISIS supported a few months ago. He was a young Muslim but not specially religious and he was not involved with the movement directly but agree with them.

In his view, even if the citizens of western countries can enjoy freedom and a good life, the actions of their governments in other countries are not so wonderful. The word "hypocrite" was mentioned. I had some problems to refute this reasoning.

I think that we can condemn terrorism and be against the instauration of caliphates without give up critical thinking. After all, that should be one of the most important Western values.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#59

Post by Spearchucker »

littletimmy wrote: post #57

Have you read George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf? I think it gets to the heart of why ISIS is so popular. "Also [Hitler] has grasped the falsity of the hedonistic attitude to life. Nearly all western thought since the last war, certainly all "progressive" thought, has assumed tacitly that human beings desire nothing beyond ease, security and avoidance of pain... Hitler, because in his joyless mind he feels it with…

The missing context of Orwell's review is what Hitler had on offer isn't what he sold. Hitler sold the promise of a better life for a then-struggling, repressed Germany. There is irony in that.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#60

Post by microtonal »

endymi0n wrote: post #44

So if declaring war on ISIS is the wrong thing, what's the alternative? Giving in and taking terror for granted?

No. Recognize that the terrorists were from Europe. Recognize that integration, investing in suburbs, and improvement of basic living conditions has failed for decades. Then start solving these problems.
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