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The War ISIS Wants

nybooks.com

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Re: The War ISIS Wants

#41

Post by carlob »

[deleted] wrote: post #33
carlob wrote: post #16

My girlfriend taught in the Parisian banlieue for a year. In her experience most of what is said in this article is very much true. In this areas (which would correspond pretty much to inner cities in the US) the draw of radical Islam is very strong, starting with high school kids. After all what else is there to do? Deal drugs? On the other hand I would like to see this study that shows that increase in the level of…

[deleted]

So are you saying that because some have made it marginalization is not a thing? Of course its causes are also cultural, that is exactly my point: we need to find cultural answers to this.

Your argument smells a lot like the self-made-man American myth. Just because some have made it out of poverty, often in different conditions than these, doesn't mean we don't have to fight poverty because everyone who is smart enough will pull herself out of it by her bootstraps (and I'm not talking just about material poverty).

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#42

Post by vixen99 »

blfr wrote: post #3

The fact that the EU’s replacement rate is 1.59 children per couple and the continent needs substantial levels of immigration to maintain a productive workforce The idea here is that all people are the same, and all you need to do is shoehorn enough to keep the economy going. Beyond the complete lack of humanity in the outlook that we are like barrels of brent, it's simply wrong. If this was the case, the entire worl…

The lack of humanity will emerge soon enough if the practical problems of servicing massive government debt and supporting a European-style welfare system are not solved by having sufficient taxpayers on the ground to fund these outgoings.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#43

Post by thibauts »

carlob wrote: post #16

My girlfriend taught in the Parisian banlieue for a year. In her experience most of what is said in this article is very much true. In this areas (which would correspond pretty much to inner cities in the US) the draw of radical Islam is very strong, starting with high school kids. After all what else is there to do? Deal drugs? On the other hand I would like to see this study that shows that increase in the level of…

> After all what else is there to do? Deal drugs?

Jihadism provides these youth a sense of purpose. We failed at this. Now they fight for what is sold to them as (and they firmly believe to be) a high spiritual purpose instead of doing the jobs nobody wants to do and living a dull life in poor suburbs being treated like shit while watching rich white people enjoy loads of money on TV. In essence.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#45

Post by pythonlion »

swiley wrote: post #38
pythonlion wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

couple of thousands pinpointed (and larger) airstrikes, comprehensive wipeout of terror cells in Europe. maybe it sound extreme, but its a clear action to-face the situation. ofcurse the first witch should come to mind is to save as many lifes and dignity etc. . and i think solving it without killing will only make it a dragging problem.

Preemptive killing like that is murder.

it is happen already, i commented about duration.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#46

Post by RobertoG »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #14

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

I find your comment very relevant and I agree with all of it but I miss some references to the influence of not Levant nations in all this mess.

To your comments I would like to add: the Russians invading Afghanistan, the CIA arming and training of all kind of "rebels", the invasion of Irak, the protection of the House of Saud by the EUA, the interest of Israel in being the only strong nation in the area, the support of dictatorial regimens (and their removal) by the "western powers", etc..

It's almost impossible to solve a problem without understanding it. And this is not a simple problem.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#48

Post by nightspirit »

vanderhosen wrote: post #36
kbart wrote: post #35

"A July 2014 poll by ICM Research suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable opinion of ISIS . Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews with young people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris banlieues we found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among young people " Despite…

You seem to be ignoring the "all creeds" portion of that quote.

This is what you get following link in the article:

An ICM poll on behalf of the Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya tested the awareness of the group ISIS (previously known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Levant), in three European nations; Great Britain, France and Germany. The poll revealed that overall 2% and 7% say they are very favourable and somewhat favourable towards ISIS but a greater 26% and 43% are somewhat unfavourable and very unfavourable towards ISIS.

Not only they didn't break it down betwene religions, but I'm not even sure how NYT themselves extracted their "1/4 youths support ISIS" claim from this data.

OTOH, have a look at this link originally posted by imaginenore in some other thread:

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-ameri...

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#49

Post by notahacker »

kbart wrote: post #35

"A July 2014 poll by ICM Research suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable opinion of ISIS . Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews with young people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris banlieues we found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among young people " Despite…

Bearing in mind the number of young French people who supposedly had a "favourable or very favourable" opinion of ISIS vastly exceeded the number of young French people who were Muslim, I suspect it had little to do with religion and everything to do with a particularly poorly phrased French version of the question....

The polling organisation is reputable, but the detail that they and the Russian state media organisation they conducted it for provided is scant: http://www.icmunlimited.com/media-centre/press/isis-poll-for...

Similar polls of almost-exclusively Muslim, mainly Sunni and generally anti-West Gaza have found a much more negative opinions of ISIS

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#50

Post by return0 »

kbart wrote: post #35

"A July 2014 poll by ICM Research suggested that more than one in four French youth of all creeds between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four have a favorable or very favorable opinion of ISIS . Even if these estimates are high, in our own interviews with young people in the vast and soulless housing projects of the Paris banlieues we found surprisingly wide tolerance or support for ISIS among young people " Despite…

"of all creeds"

As you quoted yourself, this is among all creeds, not among muslims. France has larger muslim population than germany or GB that were in the same survey, yet this still does not explain the huge difference in youths actually supporting daesh. So, its fair to say that french youth in general is disillusioned. Also note that this was before charlie hebdo and the recent attack, not sure how the non-muslim french would respond now.

The banlieues are often referenced , but were the terrorists from the banlieues? the whole thing seems to be orchestrated from belgium.

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