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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#161
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 40% of these think you should be killed for leaving Islam. How do these numbers compare to other religions? For example, there is an unconfortable number of Christians who do have a fundamentalist mindset, too (although I didn't find any exact numbers). Probably similar issue for other religions and possibly also among non-religious people.

> For example, there is an unconfortable number of Christians who do have a fundamentalist mindset, too (although I didn't find any exact numbers). Even fundamentalist Christians don't have divine commandments to kill apostates. Nor do atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or Jews (well, they do, but it hasn't been in force since the Exile.) This is a false equivalency.

Well, not anymore, but Holy Inquisition did exactly that for centuries. Protestants burned witches. Buddhist, Jews or Hindus all did the same at some point. So it's not about some religions being good while others are evil, it's about narrow minded people gaining enough power at some point so that they can go with their crazy ideas unpunished. It's not a coincidence that all this started to happen with the collapse of modern Arab society and states, which unfortunately has a lot to do with US and British political ambitions.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#162

With all the respect for his contributions and good demeanor, sadly, this guy has no clue on what islam is and playin moslem like most of the 1.5 billion so called moslems. Which causes islam to be seen as a peaceful religion. No. Islam is the thing that creates these lunatics. I'm from Turkey, and I've been surrounded with islam for all my life. Problem with this kind of people is: they have created their own religi…

I wrote a pretty long reply to your junk but in light of an exchange yesterday I will shorten it to (paraphrasing a sign over the door of a bike store where I once worked): "If you have nothing to say don't do it here".

Grandparent makes a clear argument: The Qur'an is fundamentally evil. Islam is based on the Qur'an. Islam is therefore not a peaceful religion, but is a fundamentally evil religion.

I'm glad that most people practicing the religion have the decency to do whatever mental gymnastics they have to do in order to simultaneously believe that the Qur'an is the source of their morality and that killing non-Islams is immoral. But wouldn't it be better for everyone if this disgusting text were not even a purported basis of anyone's belief system?

A similar argument can be made for Christianity, although, as bad as the Bible is, it's not nearly as vile as the Qur'an.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#163
post #85
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bunch of Americans think US free speech doesn't apply to hate speech. (Although I accept that they don't want to kill you for it). A bunch of Americans think you should be killed for being black; or gay; or trans. A bunch of Americans don't think rape is actually rape - "s/he didn't fight back!", "s/he had a beer!" Lots of people have wrong ideas.

Exactly. And you tell them in no unertain terms that they are wrong, instead of making excuses because "it's their culture" or because of freedom of religion. Harmful ideologies do not get a free pass in my book just because they claim divine backing.

Try suggesting that Americans give up their guns, and you'll hear a lot about culture. Suggest that some places in USA don't fly a CSA flag and you'll hear about culture. Tell some christians that they need to teach their kids that's it's OK to be gay, and you'll hear a lot about religion and freedom of religion.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#164
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 40% of these think you should be killed for leaving Islam. How do these numbers compare to other religions? For example, there is an unconfortable number of Christians who do have a fundamentalist mindset, too (although I didn't find any exact numbers). Probably similar issue for other religions and possibly also among non-religious people.

> For example, there is an unconfortable number of Christians who do have a fundamentalist mindset, too (although I didn't find any exact numbers). Even fundamentalist Christians don't have divine commandments to kill apostates. Nor do atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or Jews (well, they do, but it hasn't been in force since the Exile.) This is a false equivalency.

Funny though, how the fundamentalists christians have killed many more muslims than muslims have killed christians. I really dislike this, "but xtians are less violent than muslims because they have a mandate to kill apostates" approach, because it ignores so much of the reality. Not to mention, without diving into old/new testament theology, that there are plenty of commands to kill in the bible, even of unbeleivers (see Dueteronomy 17).

I grew up very religiously christian, but that changed after I went to war in Iraq. It took me years of reading, studying, and discussion with others to pull myself out of that mental bondage, and one of the things I realized is that it is religion itself that encourages irrationality, and that is certainly no false equivalance as you claim.

I see more American taliban where I live in the bible belt than I saw jihadists in Iraq. We have killed thousands upon thousands more men women and children. (Not debating justification at the moment)

That is not to ignore the varying of degrees of extremism and the probability scale on which one religion produces extremists over another, especially given cultural contexts which I would consider more important than the religion itself. (See differences between wahhabi suadis and shia who live in America)

That being said though, the real danger is for the west to accept the idea that this is a purely ideological war of muslim fanatics against the oh so peaceful christian (or culturally christian) west, all the time ignoring that same seed of extremism in us that mirrors our so called enemy.

Until we can admit that it is religion itself that is the danger, and the irrationality it encourages, this issue will never be solved.

Also, regarding France, And I may get downvoted for this, but wasnt France bombing in Syria for almost two months prior to the attack? I would be willing to bet they killed at least as many civilians as died in the Paris attack, not including military age males, but where is the outrage for the syrian people?

Ill tell you the main thing I realized about terrorism, is that we create terrorists faster than we kill them, and very few of them are purely reliously motivated. I put it this way to my family and friends:

I am a warrior first and foremost. If a random bomb fell on my house and killed my family, or a stray shot from an occuping nation in America killed my son, daughter, mother or wife, I can guarantee you I would be on a great warpath. If the chinese invaded America because they claimed we were a terrorist country, and kidnapped my friend, we would try to rescue him by force if necessary.

If we want to reduce terrorism, the number one way is to stop fucking bombing every country in the middle east. not just that, but we need to stop propping up every dictator who has friendly policies to us and overthrowing any democratic movement that isnt friendly. We undermine the very foundational principles of America by doing so, and we should be leading by example, and not by force.

That is not to say force should never be used, for Im not a pacifist and beleive in the right of self defense, but I am increasingly having a hard time beleiving self defense means bombing countries halfway around the world. I would like to have that debate with someone knowledgeable.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#165
post #89
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 40% of these think you should be killed for leaving Islam. How do these numbers compare to other religions? For example, there is an unconfortable number of Christians who do have a fundamentalist mindset, too (although I didn't find any exact numbers). Probably similar issue for other religions and possibly also among non-religious people.

What would be fair comparison is a country or region with a large Christian population that's at war or serious unrest. One country that comes to mind is Rwanda in 1994.

You're assuming that the religious/ideological choices of a society aren't contributing factors to their state of war or unrest.

It's like saying, "You'd need to find a Jainist[1] population that's at war or serious unrest."

Their ideology tends to self-select states that aren't at war.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#166
post #122
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And you tell them in no unertain terms that they are wrong, instead of making excuses because "it's their culture" or because of freedom of religion. Harmful ideologies do not get a free pass in my book just because they claim divine backing.

Agreed but it works both ways - non-religious harmful ideologies can be almost as bad. What proportion of people - even of western college-educated liberals - genuinely , in their heart of hearts, supports free speech even when it's speech they disagree with, freedom of religion even when it's a religion they disagree with, and all the other enlightenment values? I fear it's pretty low.

I support freedom of speech - absolute and unrestricted. I don't support freedom of religion, but support freedom from religion - no other human should be able to force religion on other. The religion should be private matter to the individual and individual alone.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote a pretty long reply to your junk but in light of an exchange yesterday I will shorten it to (paraphrasing a sign over the door of a bike store where I once worked): "If you have nothing to say don't do it here".

Grandparent makes a clear argument: The Qur'an is fundamentally evil. Islam is based on the Qur'an. Islam is therefore not a peaceful religion, but is a fundamentally evil religion. I'm glad that most people practicing the religion have the decency to do whatever mental gymnastics they have to do in order to simultaneously believe that the Qur'an is the source of their morality and that killing non-Islams is immoral.…

And therein lies the rub no? If we concentrate on the words in a book that will never disappear how do you propose we get out of this mess? And if Christianity could - to some extent - overcome the limitations of the bible how can we assist Islam? Surely not by attempting to polarize.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#168
post #6

> They control large areas of land, have their own oil fields, and receive direct support from many countries in the region. Namely from rich oil-producing countries. That's one of those things where we could make a fairly immediate change in policy, it would come at a cost, definitely but it would change the situation for IS for the worse far more effectively than any number of bombs dropped would do.

This is just unacceptable. Given how the "international community" put sanctions on Iran that caused great damages to Iran's economy they could do similar things to ISIS. I say there is no will to stop ISIS similar to the will there was to stop Iran from enriching Uranium.

P.S: I'm from Iran.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's my sincerest hope that French troops will be deployed to Syria in the near future This kind of thinking is exactly why Mid-east is in its current state and that is exactly the reason why ISIS was born. ISIS high command mainly consists of Iraqi ex-officers, who were rendered jobless and aimless by USA's 'liberation' attempt. Al-Qaida was a result of a 'liberation' attempt by Soviets and then consequently anoth…

> This kind of thinking is exactly why Mid-east is in its current state and that is exactly the reason why ISIS was born. ISIS was born out of the Salafist/Wahhabi ideology that the Saudi state has been exporting from the beginning of its existence. This is why terrorism is almost the exclusive domain of this one sect. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism... As another poster said, if every di…

Of course, ISIS is not a one variable function.

I think the point you and @chappi42 miss is that being a jobless individual with no prospects in a war torn country with no end in sight is a whole different psychology than just being a jobless guy. Add this mix some religious agitation and you have the easiest job of all times as the HR manager of ISIS. I think this is the biggest contributing factor. Not the religion itself.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#170

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

I have an honest question here. As a believer in the Christian faith, do you believe Angels exist? And all or some of the other supernatural tales from the bible and the faith? I am ashamed to admit that I didn't realize until I was well after 25 that followers of the faith, some of them, really believed in such beings and that priests of the Christian faith have to at least pretend to do so as well. I was raised cat…

Fellow agnostic here, with religious friends and family.

I've asked my dad this before (Catholic), and his response was (paraphrasing):

Of course those stories are parables. There wasn't really a literal burning bush. But, whether the supernatural stuff is real, that's what faith is. Faith means that even when you can't see it, you know it's there because you can feel it. So you trust that what's there is what you think is there.

That's the supernatural parts of religion to my dad (I think he was in his 60s when I asked him about that.)

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