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18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

brendansudol.com

101–110 of 136 posts

Re: 18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

#101
18F/USDS peeps... would you consider bounty or reward style programs that reward all open source contributors? Eg instead of bidding for a contract, keep an open list of tasks/bugs/full projects and reward contributors whose PR's are merged in some way?

Yes, I know this monetizes what used to be free in a way and maybe goes against the "spirit" of open source, but practically speaking it feels like it'd be a huge win win for the open source community and small to medium sized government projects in general.

Re: 18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

#102
post #91
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because someone said "free market" doesn't mean you are obligated to recite the generic Litany Against Free Markets. The specific point here is that in a free market you are welcome to decide to volunteer to do something. Nothing about "free markets" prevents it. If you judge yourself to receive more utility from volunteering, then go ahead and do it. No central organization will stop you. The idea that free mar…

This individual didn't volunteer to help the government. He undercut all competition in a competitive bidding process because his costs are $0 for the project. This is one of the known failures of free markets, regardless of the actors intent the effect of his behavior is negative for those trying to participate in the market as a means of sustenance. I'm not mad at the guy, he can do whatever he wants. It's just kin…

Yes... a project for government. Are we really going to play the "privilege" card for someone volunteering for civic service? Yes... he has the wherewithal to do the work for free, and instead of lounging around or buying an XBox, he provided free government work. If that's "privilege" wouldn't you like to see more of it?

There's no shortage of work, and no realistic chance that the government is going to be able to get all of its software tasks done via donations, so worrying about what happens if everybody or even a lot of people do this is really looking the gift horse in the mouth.

Re: 18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

#103
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the winning bid had been $3000, it wouldn't have changed the situation for everyone who lost the bid. By bidding $1, he only caused one person to lose the bid, which is whomever bid second lowest.

I understand where you're coming from but I disagree. Ignoring the emotional impact on the losing bidders I think that reducing the net payout of the market has a negative effect on all market participants. If he won at a bid based on cost it would have kept the market at a price level comparable for all participants. He won the bid by ignoring all cost which has the effect of lowering the entire marketplace by pushi…

He only pushed prices down compared to what the potential second lowest bidder would've bid. If the second lowest bidder was $1 (or even sometime withing a few dozen dollars of that), then there is basically no effect by his decision.

Re: 18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

#104
post #86

This is a great outcome for that story. I must admit, I did too assume it was trolling behaviour when I saw the bidding on HN. He wanted to do the work, he got what he wanted, and the US Government got the job done for just $1! Not sure how anyone can see this but a victory for the US public. 18F is, I think, a fantastic initiative; I hope HM Government takes note - could be fantastic here in the UK too.

I hope it's not dismantled by the next administration to come into power.

Re: 18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

#105
post #29
post #20

Working for free is a luxury for the people not struggling to ends meet. "Oh, I already got paid elsewhere, but let me work for free and outbid others who are doing this as their primary job" is the unstated context and it feels a tad bit smug and elitist. Personally, I think that the goal should be to get paid while you work on open source. But, I know that its not an option for everyone. >I use open source technolo…

> and it feels a tad bit smug and elitist Saying that about someone who wants to help out so essentially volunteers their time to help a government project, which in essence means it helps everyone, seems a bit entitled and ill-informed. I'm sure many people want to get paid to work on open source, but it's a free market, and people will bid what they think a project is worth, and worth isn't always about monetary co…

> Complaining about this is essentially the same as complaining about soup-kitchen volunteers. Surely there are plenty of people that would love to be paid for that job, but we have all these smug elitist volunteers doing the jobs for free.

This comparison is inaccurate – soup kitchen volunteers are not performing a complete job which is being bid for. This underbid is more analogous to if a local government center asking for bids to serve a meeting of 500 people, and a local soup kitchen bidding $1 for the contract because they are essentially giving away free food. They then end up supplying the meeting with 500 bowls of great chili, and everyone is happy.

If the soup kitchen started doing this every time the government center issued a bid, the local restaurants would never make any money from the government center. This is not to say that they would never make money. But it is legitimate for an average restaurant in the area to be worried by the soup kitchen's actions, and view it as a potential devaluer of their product.

Re: 18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

#106
post #20

Working for free is a luxury for the people not struggling to ends meet. "Oh, I already got paid elsewhere, but let me work for free and outbid others who are doing this as their primary job" is the unstated context and it feels a tad bit smug and elitist. Personally, I think that the goal should be to get paid while you work on open source. But, I know that its not an option for everyone. >I use open source technolo…

Perhaps but I imagine people would not willingly produce something for free if it was the private sector. The fact it is government and taxes pay for it, therefore you and me pay for it, there should be no problem in getting it done for free(essentially).

Would it be better to pay a company $500, of which $150 goes to the dev and $350 to company coffers?

Re: 18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

#107
post #86

This is a great outcome for that story. I must admit, I did too assume it was trolling behaviour when I saw the bidding on HN. He wanted to do the work, he got what he wanted, and the US Government got the job done for just $1! Not sure how anyone can see this but a victory for the US public. 18F is, I think, a fantastic initiative; I hope HM Government takes note - could be fantastic here in the UK too.

I hope it's not dismantled by the next administration to come into power.

I think it's going to be safe. It demonstrably saves much much more than it costs, so conservatives will likely support it from a cost cutting/reducing government "waste" perspective. Liberals will support it because it's smart and makes government run better.

I think only an extremely cynical view would suggest this program isn't safe, a view in which conservatives intentionally dismantle good cost-saving government programs while leaving bad ones for the sole purpose of giving government a bad name.

Re: 18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

#108
post #15
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anybody be against competent coders wanting to donate time to public use? I get that other people were hoping to be paid for this, but would you end all volunteer programs on account of them interfering with paid labor?

No one is. If you want to donate your time there are a million non profits that will gladfully take the donation. There is no reason this process has to devalue everyone else's work on a paid job.

There are lots of non-profits that will gladly take the donation. Very, very few have made it as easy to donate as 18F has.

Perhaps the lesson here is that non-profits need to make it as easy and clearly-defined as 18F has in order to receive more donations.

Re: 18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

#109
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and it feels a tad bit smug and elitist Saying that about someone who wants to help out so essentially volunteers their time to help a government project, which in essence means it helps everyone, seems a bit entitled and ill-informed. I'm sure many people want to get paid to work on open source, but it's a free market, and people will bid what they think a project is worth, and worth isn't always about monetary co…

> Complaining about this is essentially the same as complaining about soup-kitchen volunteers. Surely there are plenty of people that would love to be paid for that job, but we have all these smug elitist volunteers doing the jobs for free. This comparison is inaccurate – soup kitchen volunteers are not performing a complete job which is being bid for . This underbid is more analogous to if a local government center…

Sure, but the government is under no obligation to support restaurants through soup kitchen contracts. Their mandate is to feed the poor. They should choose the option that lets them achieve this goal as efficiently as possible. Social, technological and economic changes that make it harder for restaurants to compete can and will happen, and it's the job of the restaurants to respond in a competitive way if they want those contracts, or shift their focus to a more lucrative sector, or go out of business. That's not smug and elitist (as the top level comment implied), that's the system we have and it's responsible for lifting more people out of poverty than anything we've tried before.

You can safely ignore the rest of my comment if you like, it's sort of me just rambling because there's a place to do it.

An important concept that I think some people miss with free markets and "fairness" is that it's all relative to the time frame you are looking at. Yes, it's possibly more fair (depending on how you determine fairness) to right now to completely redistribute all wealth equally between all world inhabitants, but will that result in overall better outcomes for people 50 years from now? If we had done that 50 years ago, would we be better off right now? 100 years ago? To my view, free markets are the best way we've found so far to increase wealth overall over time, so it helps prevent local maxima effects and eventually leads to better outcomes. Unfortunately that means some people get the short end of the stick, but it's important to remember that the short end is short relative to the other end, and the stick is getting longer overall as time goes on. That's not to say I believe in a completely hand-off approach to markets. They can and are manipulated at times, and there are runaway effects that should be mitigated.

Re: 18F's Micro-Purchase Experiment: Why I Bid $1

#110
post #91
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because someone said "free market" doesn't mean you are obligated to recite the generic Litany Against Free Markets. The specific point here is that in a free market you are welcome to decide to volunteer to do something. Nothing about "free markets" prevents it. If you judge yourself to receive more utility from volunteering, then go ahead and do it. No central organization will stop you. The idea that free mar…

This individual didn't volunteer to help the government. He undercut all competition in a competitive bidding process because his costs are $0 for the project. This is one of the known failures of free markets, regardless of the actors intent the effect of his behavior is negative for those trying to participate in the market as a means of sustenance. I'm not mad at the guy, he can do whatever he wants. It's just kin…

> I'm not mad at the guy, he can do whatever he wants. It's just kind of a crappy thing to do knowingly to other people and, if widespread, could have some strange externalities.

I'm confused by this. According to this logic, it's a crappy thing to do to undercut anyone, ever, in any circumstance. Is that what you think?

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