> Container hype is running high. Developers have flocked to the technology for more easily packaging applications and running them across various disparate environments. It's a hype that should die in a fire bigger than the one reserved for Adobe Flash. Many people will think they can just deploy a shitload of containers and be done... well, each and every single one of them has to be maintained, updated for securit…
I've tried so hard as an infrastructure person to explain this to people. It's better just to ignore the hype or move to sane orgs that aren't on the container hype train (so you're not wasting valuable time on tech that's going to get gutted eventually). There is no magic tech that makes problems go away. Just abstractions (sometimes they work, sometimes they don't).
Ex VMware, Microsoft and Citrix workers set up application container company
21–30 of 59 posts
Re: Ex VMware, Microsoft and Citrix workers set up application container company
#22> Container hype is running high. Developers have flocked to the technology for more easily packaging applications and running them across various disparate environments. It's a hype that should die in a fire bigger than the one reserved for Adobe Flash. Many people will think they can just deploy a shitload of containers and be done... well, each and every single one of them has to be maintained, updated for securit…
> each and every single one of them has to be maintained, updated for security fixes... No, of course not. No single container should have a lifetime greater than a day or two. "Maintenance" is deploying the latest, integration- and end-to-end-tested version of the software, as part of a continuous build pipeline.
Re: Ex VMware, Microsoft and Citrix workers set up application container company
#23Re: Ex VMware, Microsoft and Citrix workers set up application container company
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Without containers I would be spending a lot of time configuring servers/VMs and failing at that If it turns out during evaluation that setting up a simple Debian VM with the requirements of the tool, the tool ends up on the "black list" for me. No matter the possible productivity gains, I won't use anything needing more than two hours just to get started (i.e. running a Hello World).
No matter the possible productivity gains, I won't use anything needing more than two hours just to get started (i.e. running a Hello World). well that certainly helps frame your posts. In this case docker has a webpage that you can play around with. Maybe 10 minutes to get the basic idea. I'm struggling to find out where your hostility comes from. It doesn't make your job disposable, which it sounds like where your…
I like to be in absolute control over my environment - and my time. If a tool author cannot manage to provide a Debian package with reasonably current and extensive documentation, I won't waste my time.
Re: Ex VMware, Microsoft and Citrix workers set up application container company
#25> Container hype is running high. Developers have flocked to the technology for more easily packaging applications and running them across various disparate environments. It's a hype that should die in a fire bigger than the one reserved for Adobe Flash. Many people will think they can just deploy a shitload of containers and be done... well, each and every single one of them has to be maintained, updated for securit…
Something I think a lot of people struggle with, both on the Dev side and the Ops side, is to think of VMs and containers as completely disposable. Does it add value, or help you, for you to have an emotional attachment to this server? Instead of doing OS updates, application updates, code updates, and configuration updates to 50 identical webservers that live behind load balancers, it might be faster to upgrade one.…
Re: Ex VMware, Microsoft and Citrix workers set up application container company
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
> each and every single one of them has to be maintained, updated for security fixes... No, of course not. No single container should have a lifetime greater than a day or two. "Maintenance" is deploying the latest, integration- and end-to-end-tested version of the software, as part of a continuous build pipeline.
So your haproxy, nginx, ldap, dns, nagios, sftp, ELK, imap, etc... services don't live more than a day or two? Interesting.....
In this case the application containers themselves can perfectly live less than a day.
Re: Ex VMware, Microsoft and Citrix workers set up application container company
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
> each and every single one of them has to be maintained, updated for security fixes... No, of course not. No single container should have a lifetime greater than a day or two. "Maintenance" is deploying the latest, integration- and end-to-end-tested version of the software, as part of a continuous build pipeline.
So your haproxy, nginx, ldap, dns, nagios, sftp, ELK, imap, etc... services don't live more than a day or two? Interesting.....
Re: Ex VMware, Microsoft and Citrix workers set up application container company
#28> Container hype is running high. Developers have flocked to the technology for more easily packaging applications and running them across various disparate environments. It's a hype that should die in a fire bigger than the one reserved for Adobe Flash. Many people will think they can just deploy a shitload of containers and be done... well, each and every single one of them has to be maintained, updated for securit…
Re: Ex VMware, Microsoft and Citrix workers set up application container company
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've tried so hard as an infrastructure person to explain this to people. It's better just to ignore the hype or move to sane orgs that aren't on the container hype train (so you're not wasting valuable time on tech that's going to get gutted eventually). There is no magic tech that makes problems go away. Just abstractions (sometimes they work, sometimes they don't).
It's hard to take your criticism seriously when Google, Netflix, Heroku, Shopify, Paypal, Uber, Ebay, Yelp, Spotify don't qualify as "sane" orgs according to your criteria.
I dare say that all that microservice stuff only works with 300+ employees if you keep everything containerized.
Re: Ex VMware, Microsoft and Citrix workers set up application container company
#30> Container hype is running high. Developers have flocked to the technology for more easily packaging applications and running them across various disparate environments. It's a hype that should die in a fire bigger than the one reserved for Adobe Flash. Many people will think they can just deploy a shitload of containers and be done... well, each and every single one of them has to be maintained, updated for securit…
The meaning and the life cycle of container are no different from having a big virtual machine image, but container technology such as docker has been made blazing quick to start and kill, and I think that's a step forward. Containers in general allows multiple applications live in its own "pretty good" sandbox environment (read about Docker security, as there are many security implications most people don't pay attention to). This is great for truly stateless applications, or ETL applications, for which there is no need for a pool of machines dedicated to just host one specific application. This is not something we can do with big virtual machine unless now you want to invest your time to manage creating different users on the server, carefully writing down UNIX permission, as opposed to understand the security control around using containers (and linking containers). And many people don't pay attention to the size of the base image. Most people probably just use the vanilla Linux (ubuntu/redhat/centos, etc) image, but that kind of Docker image is too big for scaling and testing.
An example of ETL or long running program would be downloading huge files from some on-premise, and upload files to S3 in chunks. If your files are large, you should chunks to your compute. To keep track of progress of thousands of chunks, you need queue and worker nodes. now you've got a fleet of computes, and you want to run everything (worker and primary web applications handling the requests) in parallels, as quickly as possible, as stateless as possible on the compute side, you can leverage containers, plus the use of queues, and a RMDBS for transaction logs. Here container technology such as Docker is useful.
You are right, don't blindly follow the "everything should be containerized" hype, I don't think most people would dare to containerized Cassandra database and fit a big box with Cassandra database and web applications running in production.
Regardless of approach, when it comes to self-healing, highly automated, reproducible, and secure infrastructure:
* service discovery
* access control
* monitoring and insight analysis
* credential management
* version control and management (containers, security patches, container and image life cycle)
are problems we cannot solve with containers without integrating with third-party softwares.
Guess, what, there is no one solution solves these. They are just buzz words and goals we haven't achieved well as a community... even OSS platforms like CloudFoundry and Kubernetes are only able to do the application-side of life cycle to the point of easing deployment, not so much everything else.