State of emergency in France • Hacker News Board

Re: State of emergency in France

#161

Post by api » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:06 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #113

rebootthesystem wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be interested to see what you would think of this, your statement, if you were holding the dismembered body of your father, mother, sib,ing or loved one in your arms. Dead. Our free societies do not no Eed to change. Theirs do. And the solution is very simple. The problem is nobody has the balls and determination to do it. There's a fundamental incompatibiliti between ideologies and behavior. Being poor, uned…

> No, there's only one ideology on the planet with a radicalized extreme minority that supports and promotes this kind of behavior. The Buddhists? They have at least one army and two terrorist groups. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/969_Movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Karen_Buddhist_Army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodu_Bala_Sena Or perhaps the Sikhs? There are still some active Sikh terrorist groups.…

Any belief system theistic or not can become fanatical and violent as soon as it's followers become obsessed and decide that the end justifies the means. The 20th century saw quite a few atheistic or at least non religious political ideologies behaving no better than this.

Radical Islam today seems to be doing all the same things that radical fascists and Marxists did in the 20th century.

Re: State of emergency in France

#162

Post by DanBC » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:08 PM UTC

api wrote: post #161

DanBC wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, there's only one ideology on the planet with a radicalized extreme minority that supports and promotes this kind of behavior. The Buddhists? They have at least one army and two terrorist groups. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/969_Movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Karen_Buddhist_Army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodu_Bala_Sena Or perhaps the Sikhs? There are still some active Sikh terrorist groups.…

Any belief system theistic or not can become fanatical and violent as soon as it's followers become obsessed and decide that the end justifies the means. The 20th century saw quite a few atheistic or at least non religious political ideologies behaving no better than this. Radical Islam today seems to be doing all the same things that radical fascists and Marxists did in the 20th century.

> Radical Islam

But there are plenty of other radical groups. Today the right wing extremists are a greater threat to Americans than Muslims are.

Re: State of emergency in France

#163

Post by codedokode » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:09 PM UTC

junto wrote: post #158

CPLX wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder why I never see this one on lists of choices: 5. Stop killing large numbers of Muslim people in the Middle East every week and see if that doesn't make them less likely to kill comparatively small numbers of people in Western cities every couple of years.

I agree completely, but you can't put this genie back in the bottle. What is your solution given the current status quo? Say that we leave them to themselves. The USA abandons all of its based on "Muslim lands". They decide to leave us in peace after we apologise profusely and offer reparations for the damage we've done? They aren't doing this for retribution for our acts in the middle East. You've missed the point o…

West is a enemy against which they can unite all other arabs. If west is not an enemy, they cannot unite and will fight each other, e.g. sunnite vs shiite like they have been doing last thousand years.

> They want all non-Muslims who don't want Sharia Law dead

This is a good example of a western propaganda. Sure, there are radical people who say so but they do not have mass support to realise this plan and not everyone thinks so.

> Leaving the Muslim lands and making reparations is not going to help the situation at all

Why don't we try? In the meantime we can take other measures to protect ourselves too.

Re: State of emergency in France

#164

Post by astrobe_ » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:12 PM UTC

gizi wrote: post #122

A great part of the native French has always been openly or covertly racist towards the North African immigrants in France. I am not surprised by the presence of feelings of hatred amongst the North Africans. This event will make the native French even more racist and the North Africans even more filled with hate. Then, you also have the aspect of religion. The native French like to make derogatory remarks about Isla…

Come visit us.

Re: State of emergency in France

#165

Post by micron7 » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:15 PM UTC

mbrock wrote: post #109

Dolores12 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually succesful in Israel. Check airport profiling.

I am very hesitant to call Israel's policies successful in the bigger picture, but I'll respectfully decline that entire debate.

junto said:

> We could try and close all the borders... or... kick all immigrants out of our countries

mbrock said:

> Draconian measures... historically unsuccessful... [establishing those measures] also grievously violates the core principles of an open and liberal society... Vehemently disagreeing with your opinion is a crucial necessity for anyone who stands for democracy and liberty.

Dolores12 said:

> It is actually succesful in Israel.

Mbrock, I beg you to engage the argument. This is the debate we should be having. There can't be double standards. Either closing borders and kicking out immigrants "grievously violates the principles of democracy and freedom" [1] or they don't. Which is it?

[1] In which case the U.S. supports a State that "grievously violates the principles of democracy and freedom" and we should stop supporting them immediately.

Re: State of emergency in France

#166

Post by codedokode » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:16 PM UTC

bayesianhorse wrote: post #151

vlehto wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I was genuinely curious. To me "power projection" in itself is morally very questionable. Even without terrorist attacks. Unfortunately modern geopolitics is more Machiavellian than Machiavelli himself was.

Not stopping genocide is morally questionable too. And that's what Assad and IS have been doing.

So did western invasion into Iraq stop genocide and make things better there? It just made everything more complicated.

Re: State of emergency in France

#167

Post by TeMPOraL » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:16 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #162

api wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any belief system theistic or not can become fanatical and violent as soon as it's followers become obsessed and decide that the end justifies the means. The 20th century saw quite a few atheistic or at least non religious political ideologies behaving no better than this. Radical Islam today seems to be doing all the same things that radical fascists and Marxists did in the 20th century.

> Radical Islam But there are plenty of other radical groups. Today the right wing extremists are a greater threat to Americans than Muslims are.

And radical drivers are a greater threat to Europeans than Muslims are, since they do "become obsessed" (with the right to drive like they like regardless what the law says) and "decide that the end" (getting to the red light 2 seconds faster) "justifies the means" (speeding), killing a lot more of people in the process than terror attacks ever did.

The point is, there are many other groups we could focus on and be much more productive with it. Hell, "radical Islam" probaly has the feature that if we elected to ignore it instead of messing with it abroad and radicalizing people even further, it'd probably eventually go away.

But either way, it's a job for the police to deal with, and it does not call for the general population to start retaliating on innocent people who sorta, kinda look a little similar to the radical branch of a radical branch of a foreign religion.

Re: State of emergency in France

#168

Post by Kristine1975 » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:17 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #127

mercer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because so far it's primarily been radicalized muslims that have been involved in acts of terrorism?

You ignore the long history of terrorist actions in Europe, with some animal rights groups, some left wing groups, some extreme right wing individuals, some nationalist / separatist groups, etc etc.

In France there's even this group: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comit%C3%A9_R%C3%A9gional_d%27...

Comité régional d'action viticole (CRAV, Regional Committee for Viticultural Action), or sometimes Comité d'action viticole (CAV, Committee for Viticultural Action) is a French group of radical wine producers. It has claimed responsibility for numerous attacks including dynamiting grocery stores, a winery, the agriculture ministry offices in two cities, burning a car at another, hijacking a tanker, and destroying large quantities of non-French wine.

Re: State of emergency in France

#169

Post by oneeyedpigeon » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:18 PM UTC

punee wrote: post #111

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You choice of wording suggests a different meaning from what, I hope, you intended. You say "all Muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised" - this sounds very much like "all Muslims ... have the potential to be radicalised". Hopefully, what you actually mean is "monitor any Muslim with the potential to be radicalised" - i.e. monitor a tiny number of Muslims, not all of them!

That's incorrect. "all muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised" is the subset of muslims who have the potential to be radicalised. Your comment would have been valid if he/she had written "all muslims living in Europe, who have the potential to be radicalised." Yes, syntax matters. The HN crowd ought to know. ;)

I know that, literally, that's the meaning of what they wrote. But this is an emotive issue. Anyone reading it quickly can easily misunderstand the intent; judging by the downvotes, many did. It would be wise, in such a case, to be as unambiguous as possible.

Re: State of emergency in France

#170

Post by oneeyedpigeon » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 6:23 PM UTC

programmernews3 wrote: post #146

Multiculturalism has failed. One of the gunmen (or should I say gun-people for the feminists) landed in Greece as a "refugee". https://twitter.com/GreekAnalyst/status/665558503528882176

Except that multiculturalism is pretty much the antithesis of the French system. But maybe you meant something else like "foreigners living where they don't belong", right?