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State of emergency in France

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Re: State of emergency in France

#141

Post by scrollaway »

Shorel wrote: post #134
return0 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except these don't appear to be a political terrorist group, like the ones we have in Europe. This is jihad, blind violence, without targeting political figures. If you ask the bombers why they do it they 'll barely be able to answer beyond some religious nonsense. If you ask the ones who sent them to bomb, i bet you will find a mixture of vague anti-westernism , anti-semitism etc. Whoever is funding them does not ha…

> blind violence It is in my own not politically correct opinion (I expect to be downvoted for this) not blind at all. It is targeted against freedom of expression and also against feminism, which they see as immoral. It is targeted towards freedom of expression because of the dogmas regarding the depiction of their own religious figures, and that is intimately related to their religion. And all that happens because…

It truly saddens me every time I write several paragraphs trying to get across the point about islam being used as a tool by people who couldn't give a shit about the religion. Neither on the attacker's side nor on the defending governments' sides.

Am I just not getting my point across?

Re: State of emergency in France

#142

Post by selectodude »

vlehto wrote: post #116
morgante wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming the violence of the Middle East on Israel is naive.

I didn't try to do that. I just think that conflict fueling unrest more than anything else. And it's lot easier to imagine Israel to disappear than to imagine half of Islamic world to disappear.

I would point fingers more at Iran vs Saudi Arabia vs ISIS than Israel. If Israel fell off the map, nothing would change.

Re: State of emergency in France

#143

Post by _delirium »

shkkmo wrote: post #139
nothrabannosir wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The native French like to make derogatory remarks about Islam, while the Muslims may badly overreact. It is a bit flippant to put those two so close. The point is not who is right and who is wrong, he said she said---the point is that some people went objectively too far. We draw the line at physical violence. Unless, of course, you actually believe that making derogatory remarks about Islam is comparable to what hap…

I didn't see any attempt at comparison, I'm not sure where you are getting that. I think you might take a moment and asses your response. The point being made was just that this is a bad cycle. Responding to events like this with increased hatred and racism will not lead to a reduction of tensions in France. As you said, the point is not who is right and who is wrong. The point is to find a way to end the violence. H…

Yes, ISIS has even publicly stated that's one of their strategies, to polarize Europe so that Muslims can no longer live in the "gray zone" of being both Muslims and Europeans, a situation ISIS views as a threat to "true" Islam.

Re: State of emergency in France

#144

Post by rimantas »

CPLX wrote: post #54
junto wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an alternative? All I see is naïve suggestions. As I see it we have several options: 1. We accept the fact that we will have more terror attacks in major European cities as a given. We such it up and we continue to live in a free and liberal society. 2. We accept total surveillance of our society. As the technology becomes more honed, terror attacks might be easier to prevent before they start. 3. We acce…

I always wonder why I never see this one on lists of choices: 5. Stop killing large numbers of Muslim people in the Middle East every week and see if that doesn't make them less likely to kill comparatively small numbers of people in Western cities every couple of years.

The largest number of Muslimm people in the Middle Eeast every week are killed by other muslim people in the Middle Eeast.

Re: State of emergency in France

#145

Post by shkkmo »

gluelogic wrote: post #135
TeMPOraL wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly vote for #1. The attack, while tragic, was small-scale, and should not be treated as anything else as organized crime. Have the police find all responsible and bring them to justice. Anything else is basically doing what the terrorists want you to do - overreact. We should learn from the mistakes of the United States: two long, bloody and expensive wars, bombing third country and terrorizing fourth, mass s…

Traffic deaths do not provide a useful scale here. They are typically not intentional and everyone understands that you take risks when you ride in an automobile. An act of terrorism, even if it causes no casualties, is cause for great concern because innocent civilians are being deliberately targeted.

They provide a completely useful scale when you are taking about society accepting a certain level of risk as the cost of having some value.

As a society, we have decided that the deaths caused by cars are worth the mobility and convenience they provide.

I personally think freedom and equality are worth at least as much as cars.

Re: State of emergency in France

#147

Post by codedokode »

dogma1138 wrote: post #19
[deleted] wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Could both of you let the bodies cool down before you start rambling about what they might and might not do? There is no "prime cause" that is easy to work on, the situation is much more complicated than terrorism is the outcome of US/Western US policy. So unless your solution for the "prime cause" is glassing the middle east a large portion of asia and africa there won't be just one simple solution. Not to mention t…

Maybe I shouldn't write this but the prime cause is european war against ISIS. These people are the victims of war. So the best solution is to stop it, withdraw european armies from arabian countries, and stop welcoming refugees. Let them fight among themselves.

Re: State of emergency in France

#148

Post by Shorel »

scrollaway wrote: post #141
Shorel wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> blind violence It is in my own not politically correct opinion (I expect to be downvoted for this) not blind at all. It is targeted against freedom of expression and also against feminism, which they see as immoral. It is targeted towards freedom of expression because of the dogmas regarding the depiction of their own religious figures, and that is intimately related to their religion. And all that happens because…

It truly saddens me every time I write several paragraphs trying to get across the point about islam being used as a tool by people who couldn't give a shit about the religion. Neither on the attacker's side nor on the defending governments' sides. Am I just not getting my point across?

Of course you do. But I think we agree to disagree. I see religions as fundamentally harmful and you don't.

Re: State of emergency in France

#149

Post by bayesianhorse »

programmernews3 wrote: post #146

Multiculturalism has failed. One of the gunmen (or should I say gun-people for the feminists) landed in Greece as a "refugee". https://twitter.com/GreekAnalyst/status/665558503528882176

Mono-culturalism has failed for never having existed in the first place!

Re: State of emergency in France

#150

Post by codedokode »

junto wrote: post #25
mbrock wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Draconian measures targeted against large ethnic groups has been historically unsuccessful in Europe. It also grievously violates the core principles of an open and liberal society, which are presumably what we are supposed to be defending. Vehemently disagreeing with your opinion is a crucial necessity for anyone who stands for democracy and liberty.

Do you have an alternative? All I see is naïve suggestions. As I see it we have several options: 1. We accept the fact that we will have more terror attacks in major European cities as a given. We such it up and we continue to live in a free and liberal society. 2. We accept total surveillance of our society. As the technology becomes more honed, terror attacks might be easier to prevent before they start. 3. We acce…

Surveillance and extended police privileges are acceptable measure in the time of war.
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