State of emergency in France • Hacker News Board

Re: State of emergency in France

#131

Post by jellicle » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

vlehto wrote: post #80

CPLX wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder why I never see this one on lists of choices: 5. Stop killing large numbers of Muslim people in the Middle East every week and see if that doesn't make them less likely to kill comparatively small numbers of people in Western cities every couple of years.

I didn't know France was doing that? Anyhow it works relatively nicely here in Finland. We only take part in UN operations as peacekeepers. And we don't have radicalized Muslims doing strikes in Finland. But for some reason Finnish Muslim radicals still travel to Syrian and join ISIS. I don't think Levant will be peaceful in my lifetime unless Israel magically disappears from the map.

> The French military has carried out its first airstrikes against ISIS in Syria, according to a statement from the office of France's presidency.

> The country had announced earlier this month that it would expand its aerial campaign against ISIS in Iraq -- which it began a year ago -- to include the militant group's positions in Syria.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/27/middleeast/syria-france-isis-b...

Re: State of emergency in France

#132

Post by nommm-nommm » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

mercer wrote: post #107

tomp wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was quoting the relevant part. Or rather, the irrelevant part. I don't see why only Muslims that have the potential to be radicalized should be monitored.

Because so far it's primarily been radicalized muslims that have been involved in acts of terrorism?

No it hasn't.

Re: State of emergency in France

#133

Post by Thaxll » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:08 PM UTC

gizi wrote: post #122

A great part of the native French has always been openly or covertly racist towards the North African immigrants in France. I am not surprised by the presence of feelings of hatred amongst the North Africans. This event will make the native French even more racist and the North Africans even more filled with hate. Then, you also have the aspect of religion. The native French like to make derogatory remarks about Isla…

I think you don't know what you're talking about.

Re: State of emergency in France

#134

Post by Shorel » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:12 PM UTC

return0 wrote: post #94

scrollaway wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're asking for more ideas and this is something I've had to painstakingly talk to people about all day, so here's a shot at this. First of all, identify the problem. Why are there terrorist attacks? Saying "religious nuttery" achieves nothing. Nuttery always exists but is in majority not enough to push people to suicide bombings. Terrorist attacks exist because of political power and influence. They're efficient,…

Except these don't appear to be a political terrorist group, like the ones we have in Europe. This is jihad, blind violence, without targeting political figures. If you ask the bombers why they do it they 'll barely be able to answer beyond some religious nonsense. If you ask the ones who sent them to bomb, i bet you will find a mixture of vague anti-westernism , anti-semitism etc. Whoever is funding them does not ha…

> blind violence

It is in my own not politically correct opinion (I expect to be downvoted for this) not blind at all. It is targeted against freedom of expression and also against feminism, which they see as immoral. It is targeted towards freedom of expression because of the dogmas regarding the depiction of their own religious figures, and that is intimately related to their religion. And all that happens because they went to other countries, but entirely rejecting other cultures, and their own culture includes trying to convert the entire world to Islam.

This is also a consequence of the Mongols and the Sack of Baghdad in 1258. Before this, Islam was the enlightened culture that preserved Greek discoveries and it was truly the religion of peace. After it, they became much more orthodox and rejected the science they helped preserve.

Re: State of emergency in France

#135

Post by gluelogic » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:13 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #51

junto wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an alternative? All I see is naïve suggestions. As I see it we have several options: 1. We accept the fact that we will have more terror attacks in major European cities as a given. We such it up and we continue to live in a free and liberal society. 2. We accept total surveillance of our society. As the technology becomes more honed, terror attacks might be easier to prevent before they start. 3. We acce…

I strongly vote for #1. The attack, while tragic, was small-scale, and should not be treated as anything else as organized crime. Have the police find all responsible and bring them to justice. Anything else is basically doing what the terrorists want you to do - overreact. We should learn from the mistakes of the United States: two long, bloody and expensive wars, bombing third country and terrorizing fourth, mass s…

Traffic deaths do not provide a useful scale here. They are typically not intentional and everyone understands that you take risks when you ride in an automobile.

An act of terrorism, even if it causes no casualties, is cause for great concern because innocent civilians are being deliberately targeted.

Re: State of emergency in France

#136

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:15 PM UTC

tgb wrote: post #4

dbcooper wrote: post #2

Is a curfew in place? I know that all universities and research institutes are closed on Saturday.[1] Sucks if you have cells to maintain. It would be awfully sad if people can't go out and drink and eat freely in one of the great European cities. If I was still in Paris I'd want to be having a good, relaxed time with my friends tonight. [1]Bonjour, Sur décision de la Mairie de Paris et du Rectorat, toutes les écoles…

I've never seen a university closure that didn't still require certain essential employees, like those caring for animals (and presumably cells?), to work. Can someone confirm whether that is the case here?

I have, but it was for a natural disaster. I was able to get to my lab by crafting a spell at the authorities using the words "radiation" and "explosive gases".

Re: State of emergency in France

#137

Post by atlih » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:16 PM UTC

junto wrote: post #18

Luker88 wrote: post #5

Didn't France approve sweeping surveillance laws back in July? And they even were on high alert due to international talks happening in Paris... Italy and Spain also stopped terrorist cells this month, but they don't seem to have such laws... Guess they need more unwarranted power, uh?

We need targeted surveillance and by that I mean something that many will vehemently disagree with. Before you down vote, please make the effort to read to the end and then down vote! If I was a doctor and my patient had cancer in his foot, then if try to treat the foot to get rid of the cancer. I would also pay particularly close attention to the leg connected to that foot, to make sure that the cancer did not sprea…

So converting the Western countries into Saudi Arabia is the solution you bring to the table?

Re: State of emergency in France

#138

Post by elipsey » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:19 PM UTC

rebootthesystem wrote: post #97

TeMPOraL wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly vote for #1. The attack, while tragic, was small-scale, and should not be treated as anything else as organized crime. Have the police find all responsible and bring them to justice. Anything else is basically doing what the terrorists want you to do - overreact. We should learn from the mistakes of the United States: two long, bloody and expensive wars, bombing third country and terrorizing fourth, mass s…

I would be interested to see what you would think of this, your statement, if you were holding the dismembered body of your father, mother, sib,ing or loved one in your arms. Dead. Our free societies do not no Eed to change. Theirs do. And the solution is very simple. The problem is nobody has the balls and determination to do it. There's a fundamental incompatibiliti between ideologies and behavior. Being poor, uned…

>> I would be interested to see what you would think of this, your statement, if you were holding the dismembered body of your father, mother, sib,ing or loved one in your arms. Dead.

If that person died in some other unlikely way, I could use the same statement to argue that my grief entitles me to a state sponsored solution that should not be evaluated strategically, or on the basis of actual utility. Do you want an optimal outcome for everyone, or just revenge at any price?

Re: State of emergency in France

#139

Post by shkkmo » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:20 PM UTC

nothrabannosir wrote: post #126

gizi wrote: post #122

A great part of the native French has always been openly or covertly racist towards the North African immigrants in France. I am not surprised by the presence of feelings of hatred amongst the North Africans. This event will make the native French even more racist and the North Africans even more filled with hate. Then, you also have the aspect of religion. The native French like to make derogatory remarks about Isla…

The native French like to make derogatory remarks about Islam, while the Muslims may badly overreact. It is a bit flippant to put those two so close. The point is not who is right and who is wrong, he said she said---the point is that some people went objectively too far. We draw the line at physical violence. Unless, of course, you actually believe that making derogatory remarks about Islam is comparable to what hap…

I didn't see any attempt at comparison, I'm not sure where you are getting that. I think you might take a moment and asses your response.

The point being made was just that this is a bad cycle. Responding to events like this with increased hatred and racism will not lead to a reduction of tensions in France.

As you said, the point is not who is right and who is wrong. The point is to find a way to end the violence. Hatred won't do it (unless you can find a 3rd part to unite in hatred of :).

Re: State of emergency in France

#140

Post by nurb » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:20 PM UTC

junto wrote: post #25

mbrock wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Draconian measures targeted against large ethnic groups has been historically unsuccessful in Europe. It also grievously violates the core principles of an open and liberal society, which are presumably what we are supposed to be defending. Vehemently disagreeing with your opinion is a crucial necessity for anyone who stands for democracy and liberty.

Do you have an alternative? All I see is naïve suggestions. As I see it we have several options: 1. We accept the fact that we will have more terror attacks in major European cities as a given. We such it up and we continue to live in a free and liberal society. 2. We accept total surveillance of our society. As the technology becomes more honed, terror attacks might be easier to prevent before they start. 3. We acce…

Agree with #1

From my point of view we can't fight terrorism by war or massive surveillance. It's a matter of culture, if everyone knew about the beauty of life, and all good things that she provide, this would not happen.

Your culture allows you to link your actions to different kind of emotions, and especially the one which make you unable to hurt anyone else. This is the way religions (all of them) were spreading peace, way before the internet, when the only culture you add access to was the holy book in the nearest temple. That's what is making us different than these emotionsless animals who are manipulated to kill people and themselves.

So to stop this we need to share more values, more principles, with more people. Values and principles are carried by culture. Now think about the huge amount of free culture that governments and industries are trying to stop, to reduce and to slow down. All these torrents and files shamefully shared from all over the world, this could be the answer.

Legalising piracy and encouraging people to share more, will make the culture spread faster and reduce the number "lost" people, on the long term, or maybe even on the short term with a good old internet buzz. Let's show them how we live and how we think and how good it is.