Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly • Hacker News Board

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#211

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 11:37 PM UTC

evgen wrote: post #173

rgbrenner wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's by (federal) law... specifically Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 500 http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/lsv/lsv.html Vehicles under 3000lbs and with a max speed of 20-25mph (like golf carts) do not have to meet the safety requirements of passenger vehicles. This wikipedia page sums up the situation pretty well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle

Nice circular reasoning there. Google chooses not to meet the safety requirements that are imposed on regular vehicles. Because Google makes this choice you posit that the law is forcing it to limit the speed. I think you have causality backwards here. There are similar laws preventing mopeds and other motor-driven bicycles from entering highways; the laws prevent the vehicle from maintaining highway speeds and there…

[deleted]

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#212

Post by sundvor » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 11:11 AM UTC

raldi wrote: post #13

sundvor wrote: post #3

Well I for one would find a vehicle travelling at 40km/h in a 60 zone incredibly annoying, even if they're legally allowed to travel that slow.

How do you feel about cyclists on 35mph (60kph) roads?

I am a cyclist myself (2 mtbs, 1 roadie, 1 cx commuter); take a guess. Hint: It's a lot easier to overtake a considerate cyclist than it is to overtake a slow moving car.

Also: A cyclist will ride at the speed the cyclist can ride. No beef there. The lethargic, social network distracted drivers, however...

FWIW I also have a full motorcycle license, although I gave up my 600 many years ago; I miss doing Phillip Island at 180km/h leaned over. I like to believe that having used multiple modes of transport broadens my horizons.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#213

Post by nitrogen » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

Piskvorrr wrote: post #166

nitrogen wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of traffic is to run an economy, not to parade at a precise speed for the amusement of deontologically obsessed nannies. If a line of traffic wants to go at speed+5, then the proper speed of traffic is speed+5, and going speed-5 is causing economic harm.

By inductive reasoning, the proper speed of traffic is equal to the maximum speed of the car, and anything less is causing economic harm. (#cc: That was sarcasm) In other words, that would only work for a traffic system which only moves one way, linearly, and has zero branches. Out there in meatspace, things are...a little bit more complex. Intersections and buses and trucks and pedestrians, oh my.

To clarify, I'm referring to freeways, not suburban neighborhoods. No pedestrians.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#214

Post by cbd1984 » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #208

cbd1984 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And corporations are people Can we have at least one discussion forum where the notion of corporate personhood isn't abused into idiocy like this? Maybe here on a discussion board run by Y Combinator, a company with the mission of helping to create new corporations?

I agree that in general, this quote gets brought into the discussion rather blindly. But in this specific case, I assert (without an actual legal background) that the word "person" in this law would refer to Google and that this loophole wouldn't work.

> I assert (without an actual legal background) that the word "person" in this law would refer to Google

Of course it wouldn't.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#215

Post by executesorder66 » Sun, Nov 15, 2015, 8:46 AM UTC

undersuit wrote: post #210

lsaferite wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The needed gap is proportional to your speed. Starting speed from a stop is quite low so the gap needed is low. As you gain speed you expand the gap.

You can't all accelerate at the same rates and expect the distance between the cars to increase. The slow trundle off the starting line is needed to establish following distance.

That is why I said accelerate _slower_ than the person in front of you to build a gap. (Once you are on the other side of the traffic light)

When the light goes green everyone should go at the exact same time and acceleration. Because you just started moving your speed is very low, so you don't need a large following distance.

You are clearly one of the millions of people that doesn't understand this.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#216

Post by throwketchup » Sun, Nov 15, 2015, 11:40 PM UTC

ThePhysicist wrote: post #140

declan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! That MV police blog post says the traffic officer stopped the car to "educate the operators about impeding traffic per 22400(a) of the California Vehicle Code." That section of the vehicle code says, emphasis added: "No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of…

I think if the vehicle is only able to drive 25 mph it is not allowed to drive on the freeway, otherwise one would need to allow tractors by the same argument. In most European countries there is a minimum speed requirement when driving on thr motorway (usually between 60 - 80 km/h), and sometimes there are even lane-specific speed limits (e.g. left lane requires at least 110 km/h). All that is only relevant if the t…

Tractors are allowed. The magic phrase you need to type into google to get the relevant results is "farm implement."

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#217

Post by kwhitefoot » Mon, Nov 16, 2015, 10:07 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #124

dickdastardly wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Britain, it's entirely lawful and very common to cross 40-60MPH roads without signals. Often the roads don't even have a marked crossing, since you can legally cross wherever you want. It's also not too uncommon to cross a non-motorway 70MPH dual carriageway, when walking outside a city. I don't know if our roads are safer for pedestrians than the USA. They're considerably safer in total, but it seems difficu…

As one example of a crossing which does have warnings: The A417 between Cirencester and Cheltenham is a dual carriageway that has pedestrian footpaths across it. Imagine driving at 70mph toward this: 350 yard warning: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8078399,-2.0618748,3a,75y,... actual crossing: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8051623,-2.0595278,3a,75y,... 350 yards at 70 MPH is, I think, 10 seconds.

That's about twice the stopping distance for a wet road so plenty of time to stop except that you can't tell until a lot later that someone might be about to cross because you can't see the pedestrian approach. I come from Swindon and drive that road quite often when I go back to visit family and I have never seen a pedestrian cross it. I certainly wouldn't like to do it except on a bright clear and dry day but I dare say that the locals might have a better idea of the risks.

Re: Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly

#218

Post by pluma » Mon, Nov 16, 2015, 6:49 PM UTC

ollie87 wrote: post #163

pluma wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not, though. In Germany the minimum safety distance is taught in driving classes and severe violations of it will be fined like any other reckless behaviour. The rule of thumb is "as much of a distance as you pass within two seconds". This scales wonderfully with speed and easily covers the reaction time and breaking duration. Sure, in urban traffic the typical safety distance is usually less than a vehicle leng…

It's the same in the UK. You can also be fined for hogging lanes on a motorway, thankfully.

We also have a concept called "Richtgeschwindigkeit", a recommended maximum speed. For the Autobahn (German motorways) it's 130 km/h unless there is a speed limit lower than that. This is the speed you're expected to drive under "normal" circumstances (i.e. good weather, low to medium traffic, clear sight).

Part of driver's education is being able to adjust your speed to the conditions and safely maintain the recommended speed on the Autobahn when possible. If you are too scared to drive at such speeds or unable to do so safely, you won't pass.

Of course we still have plenty of drivers who are afraid of driving on the Autobahn (often because they don't do it regularly enough once they have the driver's license) and especially the elderly can be in denial about the limits of their actual abilities and make up for their inability to drive safely by driving more slowly (which isn't necessarily any safer).