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State of emergency in France

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Re: State of emergency in France

#111
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't partially quote me as it alters the meaning: > is to monitor all Muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised The last part of that is important. I'm talked about targeted surveillance.

You choice of wording suggests a different meaning from what, I hope, you intended. You say "all Muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised" - this sounds very much like "all Muslims ... have the potential to be radicalised". Hopefully, what you actually mean is "monitor any Muslim with the potential to be radicalised" - i.e. monitor a tiny number of Muslims, not all of them!

That's incorrect.

"all muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised" is the subset of muslims who have the potential to be radicalised.

Your comment would have been valid if he/she had written "all muslims living in Europe, who have the potential to be radicalised."

Yes, syntax matters. The HN crowd ought to know. ;)

Re: State of emergency in France

#112
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or societies are desperately trying not to impose draconian rules of monitoring on a religious group, but as it stands I see little choice in the matter. Try harder. You don't maintain liberty by destroying it. > is to monitor all Muslims No, that is not a solution. You are responding with fear to the fact that the world is a dangerous place. Fear is not a place from which to make decisions. Terrorist attacks are b…

You're the second person to misquote me. > is to monitor all Muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised This is about targeting those who are becoming radicalised, not monitoring every single Muslim in Europe.

is there some way you've imagined to pull that off without monitoring everybody? perhaps a survey where people can indicate how likely they are to follow radical Islam on a scale of 1-5.

Re: State of emergency in France

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly vote for #1. The attack, while tragic, was small-scale, and should not be treated as anything else as organized crime. Have the police find all responsible and bring them to justice. Anything else is basically doing what the terrorists want you to do - overreact. We should learn from the mistakes of the United States: two long, bloody and expensive wars, bombing third country and terrorizing fourth, mass s…

I would be interested to see what you would think of this, your statement, if you were holding the dismembered body of your father, mother, sib,ing or loved one in your arms. Dead. Our free societies do not no Eed to change. Theirs do. And the solution is very simple. The problem is nobody has the balls and determination to do it. There's a fundamental incompatibiliti between ideologies and behavior. Being poor, uned…

> No, there's only one ideology on the planet with a radicalized extreme minority that supports and promotes this kind of behavior.

The Buddhists? They have at least one army and two terrorist groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/969_Movement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Karen_Buddhist_Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodu_Bala_Sena

Or perhaps the Sikhs? There are still some active Sikh terrorist groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement#Abatement_o...

And before you say that those groups don't affect America: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/nevada-man-charged-aiding-...

Perhaps you mean Christians? There are a bunch, such as the Lord's Resistance Army (now operating in Sudan) as well as a bunch who have carried out actions in mainland US. In the US the main threat is from either Christian or right wing extremist groups.

Re: State of emergency in France

#114
post #72
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment tells more about your identity than anything else. Not that there is nothing really wrong with that. Democratic state could take any stance on the subject. Probably one that is easy to sell to people. This stuff comes interesting when we have democracy and liberty fighting against each other. Which do you choose?

My identity isn't particularly relevant to these foundational principles. I could be a committed nihilist or an anti-liberal ideologue and still explain how draconian ethnic surveillance violates the principles of an open liberal society. Whether an open liberal society is ultimately good or worth maintaining is something I don't bring into the debate at this point. Since it is essential to the core values of the Fre…

Sorry, I guess I read too much into your comment.

Democracy, equality before the law and freedom of speech need each other to work. To me it seems self evident and I assumed it to be no-brainer to large majority of HN.

I thought that we we're discussing here a situation where freedom and democracy might be conflicted. If they cannot be conflicted, then we have to assume that people of democratic nation are unable to ever vote for ethnic surveillance. Which seems unrealistic assumption.

Re: State of emergency in France

#115
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The news media was suggesting that France and European internal border security has not been so rigorous.

That's by design not mistake. Within the Schengen Area borders are pretty much left open. Even flying you might be asked for ID by the airline but won't be by border control. If you drive from France to, say, Belgium, you'll just drive past a "Welcome to Belgium" sign.

> Within the Schengen Area borders

Well, it's the same AT the Schengen border these days. It's not a border, it's a joke if anyone can go past it.

Re: State of emergency in France

#116
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know France was doing that? Anyhow it works relatively nicely here in Finland. We only take part in UN operations as peacekeepers. And we don't have radicalized Muslims doing strikes in Finland. But for some reason Finnish Muslim radicals still travel to Syrian and join ISIS. I don't think Levant will be peaceful in my lifetime unless Israel magically disappears from the map.

Blaming the violence of the Middle East on Israel is naive.

I didn't try to do that. I just think that conflict fueling unrest more than anything else. And it's lot easier to imagine Israel to disappear than to imagine half of Islamic world to disappear.

Re: State of emergency in France

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly vote for #1. The attack, while tragic, was small-scale, and should not be treated as anything else as organized crime. Have the police find all responsible and bring them to justice. Anything else is basically doing what the terrorists want you to do - overreact. We should learn from the mistakes of the United States: two long, bloody and expensive wars, bombing third country and terrorizing fourth, mass s…

I would be interested to see what you would think of this, your statement, if you were holding the dismembered body of your father, mother, sib,ing or loved one in your arms. Dead. Our free societies do not no Eed to change. Theirs do. And the solution is very simple. The problem is nobody has the balls and determination to do it. There's a fundamental incompatibiliti between ideologies and behavior. Being poor, uned…

> We don't have to change. The delusional stone age brutal inhuman apes pushing around nonsense have to. The world needs to unite against them, not respect their bullshit religion and ideology.

That it is itself a brutal stone age tribal point of view, you have become what you claim to despise.

Re: State of emergency in France

#118
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know France was doing that? Anyhow it works relatively nicely here in Finland. We only take part in UN operations as peacekeepers. And we don't have radicalized Muslims doing strikes in Finland. But for some reason Finnish Muslim radicals still travel to Syrian and join ISIS. I don't think Levant will be peaceful in my lifetime unless Israel magically disappears from the map.

> France is sending its largest warship to join operations against Islamic State (IS) in Syria and Iraq. source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34738177

Thanks. I was genuinely curious.

To me "power projection" in itself is morally very questionable. Even without terrorist attacks. Unfortunately modern geopolitics is more Machiavellian than Machiavelli himself was.

Re: State of emergency in France

#119
post #18
post #5

Didn't France approve sweeping surveillance laws back in July? And they even were on high alert due to international talks happening in Paris... Italy and Spain also stopped terrorist cells this month, but they don't seem to have such laws... Guess they need more unwarranted power, uh?

We need targeted surveillance and by that I mean something that many will vehemently disagree with. Before you down vote, please make the effort to read to the end and then down vote! If I was a doctor and my patient had cancer in his foot, then if try to treat the foot to get rid of the cancer. I would also pay particularly close attention to the leg connected to that foot, to make sure that the cancer did not sprea…

"We, the West, overthrew Saddam by violence. We overthrew Gaddafi by violence. We are trying to overthrow Assad by violence. Harsh regimes all — but far less draconian than our Saudi allies, and other tyrannies around the world. What has been the result of these interventions? A hell on earth, one that grows wider and more virulent year after year.

Without the American crime of aggressive war against Iraq — which, by the measurements used by Western governments themselves, left more than a million innocent people dead — there would be no ISIS, no “Al Qaeda in Iraq.” Without the Saudi and Western funding and arming of an amalgam of extremist Sunni groups across the Middle East, used as proxies to strike at Iran and its allies, there would be no ISIS. Let’s go back further. Without the direct, extensive and deliberate creation by the United States and its Saudi ally of a world-wide movement of armed Sunni extremists during the Carter and Reagan administrations, there would have been no “War on Terror” — and no terrorist attacks in Paris tonight.

Again, let’s be as clear as possible: the hellish world we live in today is the result of deliberate policies and actions undertaken by the United States and its allies over the past decades. It was Washington that led and/or supported the quashing of secular political resistance across the Middle East, in order to bring recalcitrant leaders like Nasser to heel and to back corrupt and brutal dictators who would advance the US agenda of political domination and resource exploitation.

The open history of the last half-century is very clear in this regard. Going all the way back to the overthrow of the democratic government of Iran in 1953, the United States has deliberately and consciously pushed the most extreme sectarian groups in order to undermine a broader-based secular resistance to its domination agenda.

Why bring up this “ancient history” when fresh blood is running in the streets of Paris? Because that blood would not be running if not for this ancient history; and because the reaction to this latest reverberations of Washington’s decades-long, bipartisan cultivation of religious extremism will certainly be more bloodshed, more repression and more violent intervention. Which will, in turn, inevitably, produce yet more atrocities and upheaval as we are seeing in Paris tonight. "

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/13/the-age-of-despair-re...

Re: State of emergency in France

#120
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely possible that the message sent here was not aimed to anybody living in France. It's also likely that certain large portion of French are not going to be satisfied unless something drastic is done. To them it's not about the problem, it is about feelings and identity. So this can't be solved entirely. Best thing to mitigate the problem would be a knee-jerk reaction that does least amount of damage. Bec…

> It's completely possible that the message sent here was not aimed to anybody living in France. Why? France is bombing ISIS in Syria. That's also what the attackers were saying.

If the attackers are saying that, their real message is probably "Look, the French are not safe. We are capable of revenge." to other ISIS fighters in Syria. Morale of your own troops is of paramount importance in a war.

I think France, or any nation for that matter has very poor track record of backing down military operations after terrorist attack.

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