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State of emergency in France

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Re: State of emergency in France

#101

Post by scrollaway »

return0 wrote: post #94
scrollaway wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're asking for more ideas and this is something I've had to painstakingly talk to people about all day, so here's a shot at this. First of all, identify the problem. Why are there terrorist attacks? Saying "religious nuttery" achieves nothing. Nuttery always exists but is in majority not enough to push people to suicide bombings. Terrorist attacks exist because of political power and influence. They're efficient,…

Except these don't appear to be a political terrorist group, like the ones we have in Europe. This is jihad, blind violence, without targeting political figures. If you ask the bombers why they do it they 'll barely be able to answer beyond some religious nonsense. If you ask the ones who sent them to bomb, i bet you will find a mixture of vague anti-westernism , anti-semitism etc. Whoever is funding them does not ha…

Please cite your sources. I appreciate what you're trying to say, but I've been dealing with this for the past 19 hours and you're putting words in the mouths of attackers who are dead or have not been caught.

> Even if ISIS had a UN-recognized state, they wouldn't be able to keep it functioning for a single day.

Do you know why we say "know your enemy"? Because the worst thing you can do when facing a threat is underestimate it. You don't want to be caught off-guard. Statistically if you read this site you are familiar with computer security. Think, how does downplaying and underestimating threats work out, in the itsec world?

> It's easy to be a terrorist nowadays, because it's hard to come up with solutions to fix the broken arab world.

These are two very faintly related points. They're certainly not cause & consequence.

Re: State of emergency in France

#102

Post by junto »

gnaritas wrote: post #89
junto wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need targeted surveillance and by that I mean something that many will vehemently disagree with. Before you down vote, please make the effort to read to the end and then down vote! If I was a doctor and my patient had cancer in his foot, then if try to treat the foot to get rid of the cancer. I would also pay particularly close attention to the leg connected to that foot, to make sure that the cancer did not sprea…

> Or societies are desperately trying not to impose draconian rules of monitoring on a religious group, but as it stands I see little choice in the matter. Try harder. You don't maintain liberty by destroying it. > is to monitor all Muslims No, that is not a solution. You are responding with fear to the fact that the world is a dangerous place. Fear is not a place from which to make decisions. Terrorist attacks are b…

You're the second person to misquote me.

> is to monitor all Muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised

This is about targeting those who are becoming radicalised, not monitoring every single Muslim in Europe.

Re: State of emergency in France

#103

Post by Dolores12 »

mbrock wrote: post #22
junto wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need targeted surveillance and by that I mean something that many will vehemently disagree with. Before you down vote, please make the effort to read to the end and then down vote! If I was a doctor and my patient had cancer in his foot, then if try to treat the foot to get rid of the cancer. I would also pay particularly close attention to the leg connected to that foot, to make sure that the cancer did not sprea…

Draconian measures targeted against large ethnic groups has been historically unsuccessful in Europe. It also grievously violates the core principles of an open and liberal society, which are presumably what we are supposed to be defending. Vehemently disagreeing with your opinion is a crucial necessity for anyone who stands for democracy and liberty.

It is actually succesful in Israel. Check airport profiling.

Re: State of emergency in France

#104

Post by TeMPOraL »

rebootthesystem wrote: post #97
TeMPOraL wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly vote for #1. The attack, while tragic, was small-scale, and should not be treated as anything else as organized crime. Have the police find all responsible and bring them to justice. Anything else is basically doing what the terrorists want you to do - overreact. We should learn from the mistakes of the United States: two long, bloody and expensive wars, bombing third country and terrorizing fourth, mass s…

I would be interested to see what you would think of this, your statement, if you were holding the dismembered body of your father, mother, sib,ing or loved one in your arms. Dead. Our free societies do not no Eed to change. Theirs do. And the solution is very simple. The problem is nobody has the balls and determination to do it. There's a fundamental incompatibiliti between ideologies and behavior. Being poor, uned…

> I would be interested to see what you would think of this, your statement, if you were holding the dismembered body of your father, mother, sib,ing or loved one in your arms. Dead.

I pray that I would have enough presence of mind to not be overcome by grief and be able to utter the same statement as I did now.

People who are now holding their dead are a fraction of a fraction of percent in Europe. I feel for them, we all do, and personally I think I'd let them react in any way they want. But the rest of us were not affected directly. We have a responsibility to stay focused and stay sane if we want to get through it with a society that is worth preserving. Or with a society at all.

No amount of pain dealt by attackers justifies retaliating against innocent people who had absolutely nothing to do with it. And yes, I understand the clash of cultures narrative. I worry about it too. But even if the terror attacks were directly related to immigration, which I'm betting they are not, turning aggressive because of it would still be one of the worst possible things to do.

> The delusional stone age brutal inhuman apes pushing around nonsense have to. The world needs to unite against them, not respect their bullshit religion and ideology.

Their ideology may have problems, but that was totally, 100% uncalled for. It's below standard of dignity I'd expect from a civilized human being. And please don't blame individuals for what is a systemic problem.

Re: State of emergency in France

#105

Post by [deleted] »

junto wrote: post #18
Luker88 wrote: post #5

Didn't France approve sweeping surveillance laws back in July? And they even were on high alert due to international talks happening in Paris... Italy and Spain also stopped terrorist cells this month, but they don't seem to have such laws... Guess they need more unwarranted power, uh?

We need targeted surveillance and by that I mean something that many will vehemently disagree with. Before you down vote, please make the effort to read to the end and then down vote! If I was a doctor and my patient had cancer in his foot, then if try to treat the foot to get rid of the cancer. I would also pay particularly close attention to the leg connected to that foot, to make sure that the cancer did not sprea…

[deleted]

Re: State of emergency in France

#106

Post by gnaritas »

junto wrote: post #102
gnaritas wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or societies are desperately trying not to impose draconian rules of monitoring on a religious group, but as it stands I see little choice in the matter. Try harder. You don't maintain liberty by destroying it. > is to monitor all Muslims No, that is not a solution. You are responding with fear to the fact that the world is a dangerous place. Fear is not a place from which to make decisions. Terrorist attacks are b…

You're the second person to misquote me. > is to monitor all Muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised This is about targeting those who are becoming radicalised, not monitoring every single Muslim in Europe.

You don't need to target anyone, you don't need to monitor anyone. Terrorism is a fake problem, it kills barely anyone and is little more than statistical noise. There are so many bigger actual problems to solve and no one is proposing tossing liberty out the window to solve them. You are arguing from emotion, not reason; this is nothing more than a simple crime, let the police handle it and forget about it. You can't "fix" terrorism and it is naive to attempt to do so.

Mass surveillance is in fact a worse crime than terrorism, maybe we should jail you and all those who support it as you are the far bigger threat to liberty. Terrorism poses no threat to liberty, people like you do. Your ideas if enacted are far more dangerous to a free society than all the terrorists of the last 20 years combined.

Re: State of emergency in France

#107

Post by mercer »

tomp wrote: post #77
junto wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't partially quote me as it alters the meaning: > is to monitor all Muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised The last part of that is important. I'm talked about targeted surveillance.

I was quoting the relevant part. Or rather, the irrelevant part. I don't see why only Muslims that have the potential to be radicalized should be monitored.

Because so far it's primarily been radicalized muslims that have been involved in acts of terrorism?

Re: State of emergency in France

#108

Post by corin_ »

Spare_account wrote: post #27
corin_ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The curfew was put into place last night, the first time it has happened since 1944 apparently, but it was lifted again by this morning. It's still recommended to not go outside unless you have to, but not forbidden. (Very recently a car reportedly with four heavily armed people in it broke through a police barrier, driving towards Paris - nobody knows if directly connected yet..) It's still quite a tense atmosphere…

Re: armed men in a car It took a while to find a source that wasn't the Daily Mail http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-police-...

Worth noting that it turned out to be a non-story afterall, no armed car heading towards Paris.

Re: State of emergency in France

#109

Post by mbrock »

Dolores12 wrote: post #103
mbrock wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Draconian measures targeted against large ethnic groups has been historically unsuccessful in Europe. It also grievously violates the core principles of an open and liberal society, which are presumably what we are supposed to be defending. Vehemently disagreeing with your opinion is a crucial necessity for anyone who stands for democracy and liberty.

It is actually succesful in Israel. Check airport profiling.

I am very hesitant to call Israel's policies successful in the bigger picture, but I'll respectfully decline that entire debate.

Re: State of emergency in France

#110

Post by dogma1138 »

ilaksh wrote: post #91
SeanDav wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a false-flag attack designed to motivate moving western operations in Syria from covert to overt. There are already Russians and Chinese in Syria so this could literally kick of WWIII if no one stops it. Unfortunately the media is so well controlled that the ubiquitous war propaganda is generally not questioned. > As demonstrated by the instant downvote of my comment, media that isn't explicitly controlled…

Eyewitnesses report professional soldiers who were not apprehended. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/paris-attack-wi...

"France admits soldiers have deserted to ISIS, including ex-elite special forces and French foreign legionnaires" http://news.nationalpost.com/news/france-admits-soldiers-hav... But that said black jumper doesn't mean a soldier ISIS likes their blacks (too early for humor but the latest South Park episode kinda dealt exactly with that), could be a professional soldier, could just be an experienced fighter, could be just a guy who spent 2 weeks in Libya training how to fire an AK that looked scary and professional because he had a gun and a black adult onesie. Eye witness testimonies are often inaccurate even if they had sufficient experience to judge the expertise of the attacker they would likely over estimate it due to the trauma.
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