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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#621

Post by bedhead »

benihana wrote: post #363
bedhead wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. They don't reconcile. It sucks. It's depressing.

>You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. In my opinion, this is the most dangerous statement in this thread. Saying the actions of these people is irrational loses any ability to understand why they're doing what they're doing and how we can stop them. It turns them into a faceless enemy who are doing things because of hate, which is easy and makes my ego feel better, but doesn't really explain…

Oh lordy, no wonder this thread got partially shut down. Calling a pack of murdering religious extremists irrational now classifies as the most dangerous thing that can be said about the situation - yikes. Did I invade your safe space?

They did not terrorize citizens, they murdered them in the name of their non-existent god. Life will go on in Paris just as it did in New York. There is no goal other than blood lust and grim spectacle. All because of their nonsense and yes, irrational religion.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#622

Post by mercurial »

jacquesm wrote: post #599
threeseed wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly right. The plight of the Palestinians is a significant recruiting tool but that's all it is. ISIS has no plans to liberate them. The purpose of ISIS is exactly what they say it is. To establish their own state governed by hard-right Islamic ideals. And the reason they have so much support is largely driven from the perceived persecution of Muslims worldwide e.g. xenophobia in Western countries, drone strikes…

I'm not too worried about ISIS running up against Israel, but I'm very worried about the connection between ISIS and Pakistan.

Is ISIS really linked to Pakistan? I understand there are strong suspicions of connections between Turkey and ISIS (at least pre-bombings). But I hadn't heard of a link with Pakistan until now. I thought Pakistani intelligence was happy coddling the "right" talibans and their home-grown anti-Indian terrorist groups. Do you have any evidence this connection?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#623

Post by kevindeasis »

cLeEOGPw wrote: post #616
kevindeasis wrote: post #611

From reddit ChickenInASuit8h535: ISIS aren't really trying to "solve" anything in the countries they're attacking, the main motivation behind these attacks is to widen the rift between Islam and the West and bring more moderate Muslims over to their side alpual7h345: And I'm sure backlash and discrimination resulting from this attack will further alienate Muslims in France. I'm sure that's part of their intention, an…

This is a losing game for us. If we don't make ANY backlash, then the terrorists will be encouraged to repeat attacks, as they see there are no consequences for their actions. Additionally, French will be more afraid of Muslims and will surrender whatever they have to them even more willingly, as they would feel helpless. On the other hand if we make backlash, more muslims will radicalize, again, increasing terrorism…

San Francisco seems to be a great example of multiculturalism. I have to admit that I disagree with a good amount of the things you said. I think that we will need multiculturalism to move forward. If we look back into our past, terrible things have come from preventing multiculturalism. What do you think about my statement?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#624

Post by jacquesm »

mercurial wrote: post #622
jacquesm wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not too worried about ISIS running up against Israel, but I'm very worried about the connection between ISIS and Pakistan.

Is ISIS really linked to Pakistan? I understand there are strong suspicions of connections between Turkey and ISIS (at least pre-bombings). But I hadn't heard of a link with Pakistan until now. I thought Pakistani intelligence was happy coddling the "right" talibans and their home-grown anti-Indian terrorist groups. Do you have any evidence this connection?

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2015/05/25/national/nato-say...

And a ton of other news articles on the same subject. Pakistan is super dangerous because it is not all that hard to imagine a number of groups within Pakistan switching allegiance. It is also super dangerous because it is a nuclear power and has a long history of factions inside it trying to pull Pakistan into a much more radical direction.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#625

Post by mercurial »

eivarv wrote: post #613
0mbre wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well obvioysly to someone irrational every of his action seem rational. The point is that for a phycologicaly healthy and balanced human being these actions can not be called rational by any stretch of logic

I think you'll find that psychological health has little to do with what people can convince themselves of, or convince themselves to do - i.e. you can't explain away Daesh (or WWII nazis, etc.) with mental illness. Their actions could absolutely be called rational and logical if you were to accept their premise - which is what I'd argue is irrational.

You don't even need a Godwin point for that. Nobody was calling Air Marshall Harris, well-known for his strategy of carpet-bombing civilians with incendiaries during WWII, "insane" or "irrational". Instead, they gave him a bunch of medals and made him a baronet.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#626

Post by mercurial »

asasasasasas wrote: post #249
clock_tower wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be rational, rather. The classic terrorists of the '70s wanted "a lot of people talking but not a lot of people dead" -- and also wanted to survive the experience. The new breed of terrorism in the '80s and '90s was different from those; the IRA, the PLO, and various state-sponsored terrorists in that period had/have more in common with each other, despite their obvious differences, than any have with al-Q…

> ISIS is specifically out for either world empire or apocalyptic defeat Which is why (in my understanding) ISIS does not do attacks on foreign soil. Their idea is to re-establish a caliphate (ei Islamic empire, which existed from around the time of Mohamed for centuries). ISIS would probably be okay with those that cannot join the jihad in Syria conducting a terrorist attack on their home turf, but would not activel…

Putting pressure on countries being part of the offensive against them is definitely in their interest, which is why it came to no surprise at all when it turned out that they were behind the attack.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#627

Post by mercurial »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #487
eva1984 wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just give up and offer your good will???

Yes. Treat terror attacks as any other act of organized crime. It's stupid to do otherwise, given that the very point of terrorism is to make you do anything else.

It's a bit more complex than that. We've reached the point where the Islamic State is a nation-state, which is at war with a number of other states (including France). In this context, how do you differentiate "terrorism" and "act of war"/"black ops action"?

I agree that an overreaction is likely, though considering how crazy the latest security law are, I don't see how much worse it can get in this regard.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#628

Post by born2web »

djfm wrote: post #76

I live in Paris and was spending the night in the middle of the hot zone. I was a few hundred meters from the Bataclan but fortunately the area I was in was spared. I tried to get a Uber but they were unavailable, "State of emergency, please stay home", the app said. I took a city bike home, rode about 10kms and barely saw anyone in the streets all the way home. It was really, really weird. I'm awfully sad that peopl…

I stand with you Parisians in solidarity. I have lived and worked in Paris. It is my favorite city in the world. To see the city suffering is so very sad and painful.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#629

Post by mercurial »

jacquesm wrote: post #624
mercurial wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is ISIS really linked to Pakistan? I understand there are strong suspicions of connections between Turkey and ISIS (at least pre-bombings). But I hadn't heard of a link with Pakistan until now. I thought Pakistani intelligence was happy coddling the "right" talibans and their home-grown anti-Indian terrorist groups. Do you have any evidence this connection?

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2015/05/25/national/nato-say... And a ton of other news articles on the same subject. Pakistan is super dangerous because it is not all that hard to imagine a number of groups within Pakistan switching allegiance. It is also super dangerous because it is a nuclear power and has a long history of factions inside it trying to pull Pakistan into a much more radical direction.

Didn't know about that. Now, that's not reassuring, considering that they make the child-killing Talibans look like moderates...

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#630

Post by jacquesm »

mercurial wrote: post #629
jacquesm wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2015/05/25/national/nato-say... And a ton of other news articles on the same subject. Pakistan is super dangerous because it is not all that hard to imagine a number of groups within Pakistan switching allegiance. It is also super dangerous because it is a nuclear power and has a long history of factions inside it trying to pull Pakistan into a much more radical direction.

Didn't know about that. Now, that's not reassuring, considering that they make the child-killing Talibans look like moderates...

Yes. It's a huge problem, and it looks like it is getting larger by the day.
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