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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#571

Post by bjourne »

Fluid_Mechanics wrote: post #118
djfm wrote: post #76

I live in Paris and was spending the night in the middle of the hot zone. I was a few hundred meters from the Bataclan but fortunately the area I was in was spared. I tried to get a Uber but they were unavailable, "State of emergency, please stay home", the app said. I took a city bike home, rode about 10kms and barely saw anyone in the streets all the way home. It was really, really weird. I'm awfully sad that peopl…

If we didn't need to secure their oil by supporting/deposing despots in the region, and didn't want to provide the Israelis with military/political/financial support then we would not be dealing with any of this carnage. Their attempts to fight back will only escalate the situation, and the carnage will continue. Edit: I'm not advocating that we not support Israel. I'm simply stating a hard truth regarding "why they…

We had a suicide bomber in Sweden who blew himself up because he was angry that the government didn't arrest Lars Vilks, an artist who had made some drawings of Muhammed which he thought was offensive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Vilks_Muhammad_drawings_c...).

Swedish Muslim terrorists also tried to create a massacre at Jyllandsposten because of their drawings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_carto...).

These terrorists were born and raised in Sweden, had a better standard of living than me, studied engineering in university and had nothing to complain about. Sweden doesn't attack any countries, we love Palestine and dislike Israel (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/30/sweden-official...) and we shelter 80-100,000 Muslim refugees/year. What should we do exactly? Jail all cartoonists and make it a crime to insult Islam?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#572

Post by stuaxo »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #444
Turing_Machine wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I would not. Absolutely not. No way. I would send the wife and kids first before going myself.

I wanted to argue with you about this but the more I think about it, the more I think I should retract my previous comment. I'm not in your head, I can't tell you what you would do. I apologize for doing that before. I know that for me it would depend a lot on circumstances. Is the current refugee camp safe? Is the trip overseas that dangerous? Can my family handle it there, maybe caring for our grandparents while be…

Exactly - as a species we get the males to take the risks. There is much to be gained from leaving a warzone, but when you see the footage of the refugee camps, children drowned, the immense cost of doing the journey, dealing with people smugglers etc it makes sense that you would send a young male in the family through this first.

If said young male gets to the country on the other side they are probably the most employable too.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#573

Post by olavk »

Fluid_Mechanics wrote: post #118
djfm wrote: post #76

I live in Paris and was spending the night in the middle of the hot zone. I was a few hundred meters from the Bataclan but fortunately the area I was in was spared. I tried to get a Uber but they were unavailable, "State of emergency, please stay home", the app said. I took a city bike home, rode about 10kms and barely saw anyone in the streets all the way home. It was really, really weird. I'm awfully sad that peopl…

If we didn't need to secure their oil by supporting/deposing despots in the region, and didn't want to provide the Israelis with military/political/financial support then we would not be dealing with any of this carnage. Their attempts to fight back will only escalate the situation, and the carnage will continue. Edit: I'm not advocating that we not support Israel. I'm simply stating a hard truth regarding "why they…

It is amazing how many in this thread who make declarations about the underlying political causes for this tragedy. As far as I know, no group have yet claimed responsibilities and very little is known about the perpetrators at this point. Theories have been put forth that they are either IS or al-Queda, two groups with quite different history and agenda. And it is still not confirmed it is either. So any attempt at political explanation at this point is pure knee-jerk.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#574

Post by jamesblonde »

bjourne wrote: post #571
Fluid_Mechanics wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we didn't need to secure their oil by supporting/deposing despots in the region, and didn't want to provide the Israelis with military/political/financial support then we would not be dealing with any of this carnage. Their attempts to fight back will only escalate the situation, and the carnage will continue. Edit: I'm not advocating that we not support Israel. I'm simply stating a hard truth regarding "why they…

We had a suicide bomber in Sweden who blew himself up because he was angry that the government didn't arrest Lars Vilks, an artist who had made some drawings of Muhammed which he thought was offensive ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Vilks_Muhammad_drawings_c... ). Swedish Muslim terrorists also tried to create a massacre at Jyllandsposten because of their drawings ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_…

Hard to know how people will react here in Sweden. It's an awful tragedy. I suspect it will lead to large changes in how Europe works, probably not for the better. Just as happened post September 11.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#575

Post by Radim »

stephenhuey wrote: post #200

My wife and I were just there for part of our honeymoon and literally flew out hours before, around noon on Friday. Some locals had talked to us about the recent attack some weeks ago and how they didn't want to let such people stop them from living their lives. This day is worse but I feel like the lovely people we talked to were determined, resilient and optimistic. God bless the city with peace.

I sincerely wish your post ended before that last sentence.

I realise yours may be just a figure of speech, but I find it in such bad, sinister taste to start bringing more gods and blessings into this tragic event. Really?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#576

Post by jules »

toyg wrote: post #361
jules wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what many people think, but it is demonstrably false. Most terrorists are highly educated and some are rich. The terrorists involved in 9/11 all had university degrees, for example, and some of them from western universities. These are not people who would be committing suicide anyway out of depression caused by miserable circumstances. Frankly, I suspect that at least part of this comes from the aversion of…

I know very well what you mention, but you're not reading what I wrote: "either in material or spiritual terms". Well-educated people are the first to know that society is full of lies and deceit, and without some spiritual rooting (be it familial love or something else), they are at high risk of being depressed but functional individuals. Alienation is a very powerful force. We used to say that only the rich can wor…

I'm not sure what your stance is in that case. I certainly agree with you that these people are spiritually maladjusted. They way I see it there are two competing theories. One is that terrorism is mainly the result of economic and political grievances against the west and already present psychological disorders. The other is that in addition to economic and political grievances, religion and theological grievances play a major role, and that these people aren't crazy people but people who have become convinced of a crazy idea. The former is the mainstream left wing theory, and while I am generally sympathetic to the left, this theory simply does not fit the data.

If true we would expect terrorists to be more lowly educated and poor people who mainly come from countries that have suffered under the west. We would expect these to be people who hate life, not people who love death. We would expect terrorism to be weakly or not at all correlated to religion. We would expect that the terrorists are not explicitly telling us that they're doing it because of religious dogma. We would expect terrorist groups to be fighting against the west, and not mass murdering Yazidi's for example, who have absolutely nothing to do with what happens in the world. Of all western countries, we would not expect these attacks to be against France so many times. Why have previous attacks and outrages focused on cartoonists? I could go on and on. What we actually observe is the opposite.

All of this is explained perfectly well by the second theory.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#577

Post by Kankuro »

qb45 wrote: post #554
NotHereNotThere wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how arming citizens would prevent bombs from blowing them up. What the hell is wrong with people, suggesting guns as a solution to unpredictable violent situations where guns wouldn't make any difference. You arm citizens, now what? Shoot anyone that looks mildly suspicious? Hear a bomb go off, you take out your gun then scare the shit out of people surrounding you, then get shot by somebody else that t…

Apparently, armed citizens can help in some cases. Three armed people stopped a nuthead shooting in train in France: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/21/amsterdam-paris...

These three persons were not armed.

My feeling (being a European) is that I would feel much more threatened by the fact than people I can see in the street can have a gun than I would feel safer because some random strangers could protect me with their guns.

From time to time there are some news that someone get stabbed because for having allegedly had a bad look on someone else. With guns, you don't even have the option to run.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#578

Post by SHIT_TALKER »

mercurial wrote: post #536
SHIT_TALKER wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Context: It was French colonization that put an end to the predations of the Barbary pirates and the Arab slave trade.

Context: the French king Charles X was in a difficult political situation and needed money, so attacking the then-Ottoman-dominated Algeria looked like a good idea at the time. The slave trade had stopped years ago, and the pirate activity, while not over, was way down.

The slave trade had stopped years ago, and the pirate activity, while not over, was way down.

Thanks to military defeats at the hands of Americans, English, and Dutch.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#579

Post by qb45 »

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #78
jmspring wrote: post #13

The repeated attacks, heavy immigration of refugees...I'm hoping for the best, but I feel like there is a powder keg here. Whether or not it is based in any fact, how this is handled and plays out is a serious concern.

> heavy immigration of refugees It's much more likely that the terrorists come from the frustrated youth born and raised in France, than some fresh immigrants.

Honestly, I'm curious what makes you think that the children of the new ones will be different?

When people like, say, Angela Merkel, advocate blindly accepting all those thousands of refuges smuggled to the EU, I just can't really understand - what's the point?

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#580

Post by jules »

Chathamization wrote: post #392
toyg wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why blow yourself up when you can make a bomb and then another and another? To avoid having to endure the consequences of your own actions. For people with nothing to lose, suicide attacks are actually the most risk-averse choice: regardless of the possible existence of an afterworld, you're certain to escape punishment in this world. Look at Columbine-style attacks - no religion there, just semi-rational choices.…

Very much so. My guess is if you decide to look at the angry dispossessed young men demographic, you're going to see a group more prone to violence than you would by looking at any racial or religious demographic.

Then why is it the case that virtually all these terrorist attacks come from 1 religion, which coincidentally happens to be the religion whose scripture makes this kind of behaviour rational when interpreted literally?
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