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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#531

Post by [deleted] »

gozo wrote: post #511
ofirnachum wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that the majority of the problem will go away with the end of the support of Israel is very wishful thinking. There are many complex causes of events like this and blaming Israel is pure scapegoating.

I don't think it's "pure scapegoating". It's very much a relevant part to understand the mechanics behind thing like this. The French ban on anti-Isreali demonstrations might very well have helped radicalization and recruitment of young people with non-french backgrounds. So might the last years worsening conflict in Palestine. It shouldn't be a particularly controversial statement to say that there are things that I…

[deleted]

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#532

Post by threeseed »

IvanDenisovich wrote: post #519
Fluid_Mechanics wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we didn't need to secure their oil by supporting/deposing despots in the region, and didn't want to provide the Israelis with military/political/financial support then we would not be dealing with any of this carnage. Their attempts to fight back will only escalate the situation, and the carnage will continue. Edit: I'm not advocating that we not support Israel. I'm simply stating a hard truth regarding "why they…

So far Israel hasn't featured high on Isis' agenda, and there have been no significant isis attacks on Israeli targets. This is despite the fact that they almost share a border. Neither are Palestinians' rights a top priority for isis. What's left of the the residents of Yarmouk refugee camp will testify to that. In short, Isis is not about israel vs palestine, it's about a deeper social/religious clash of ideas. So…

Exactly right. The plight of the Palestinians is a significant recruiting tool but that's all it is. ISIS has no plans to liberate them.

The purpose of ISIS is exactly what they say it is. To establish their own state governed by hard-right Islamic ideals. And the reason they have so much support is largely driven from the perceived persecution of Muslims worldwide e.g. xenophobia in Western countries, drone strikes on innocent civilians etc.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#535

Post by threeseed »

warsheep wrote: post #526
gozo wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's "pure scapegoating". It's very much a relevant part to understand the mechanics behind thing like this. The French ban on anti-Isreali demonstrations might very well have helped radicalization and recruitment of young people with non-french backgrounds. So might the last years worsening conflict in Palestine. It shouldn't be a particularly controversial statement to say that there are things that I…

A lot of "may" and "might" in your reply, and absolutely no facts. The facts are that on ISIS' agenda, fighting Palestinian groups such as Hamas has a higher priority than fighting Israel [1][2], yet people in this thread still manage to "lightly" blame the Israelis, the US, basically anyone except those responsible, as if these people are incapable of independent thought. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/world/…

> lightly" blame the Israelis, the US, basically anyone except those responsible.

This argument is so stupid.

Everyone is blaming the people responsible. That's a given. The reason people are blaming Israel and the US is because they are indirectly responsible since their actions are used as recruitment tools.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#536

Post by mercurial »

SHIT_TALKER wrote: post #372
lfam wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population of France is about 7.5% Muslim. France has had a close relationship with the Muslim world since the 19th century when they colonized parts of North Africa and the Middle East. Sadly, the position in French society of colonial immigrants and their descendants is not very high. Also sadly, France has had a lot of experience with this sort of violence, both in the colonies and "at home". If you know the a…

Context: It was French colonization that put an end to the predations of the Barbary pirates and the Arab slave trade.

Context: the French king Charles X was in a difficult political situation and needed money, so attacking the then-Ottoman-dominated Algeria looked like a good idea at the time. The slave trade had stopped years ago, and the pirate activity, while not over, was way down.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#537

Post by mercurial »

gotchange wrote: post #285
vonnik wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really important to understand the Muslim community in France, and not evoke false connections. We don't know if the attackers had anything to with the flux of Syrian migrants moving across Europe now, but my guess would be: they had nothing to do with it. There are about 5 million Muslims in France, which accounts for about 7 percent of France's total population. France has deep, long-standing and often trouble…

You forgot to include the recent intervention in Mali by French troops. This incident definitely upset the Al Qaeda in the Maghreb people and this terrorist attack was probably a retaliatory attack for the intervention.

The attackers mentioned Syria. The most likely candidate is ISIS, and they wouldn't give a damn to what happens to AQ or their affiliates.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#538

Post by tonyedgecombe »

solipsism wrote: post #507
downandout wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are doing what they are doing because they have interpreted their primary religious text as explicitly instructing them to kill people that don't believe as they do. Killing another human being that poses no threat to you, regardless of what books you like to read or what instructions you believe they contain, is absolutely irrational - regardless of your "goal". Rational people have no way of understanding thes…

Rational.. irrational.. I hope you can see that it's a pointless argument. The word "rational" is highly subjective so we shouldn't pretend there's some objective measure of rationality. * Kill an innocent civilian * Have or perform an abortion * Eat meat * Fight in a war * Drop an atomic bomb on a city * Commit suicide That's all shit that some people call rational and others call irrational. The truth is that "rati…

It's important because to start to solve these problems you have to be able to see things from their point of view, you can't really do that if you think they are irrational.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#539

Post by threeseed »

0mbre wrote: post #503
benihana wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are trying to rationalize with people who are irrational. In my opinion, this is the most dangerous statement in this thread. Saying the actions of these people is irrational loses any ability to understand why they're doing what they're doing and how we can stop them. It turns them into a faceless enemy who are doing things because of hate, which is easy and makes my ego feel better, but doesn't really explain…

Killing innocent, helpless people IS irrational. Period

It's not irrational at all.

If your goal is to terrify a nation in order to pressure it to change its foreign policy then it is quite rational. And there are quite a few examples of this approach actually working.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#540

Post by cm2187 »

001sky wrote: post #202
conradk wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, this is not the first time that France has declared a state of emergency. It was declared in 1984 and 2005. And it was declared in Algeria in the 1950s and 1960s.

This is being pedantic, but it's the first enforced curfew since WWII...I think we can cut the GP a break, since the all this stuff is part of the state of emergency/emergency measures. Peace to all.

Nope. There were another one about 10 years ago when giant riots happened in many suburbs of Paris. And both these attacks and the riots have the same root cause: a lack of integration of France's african immigration.
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