The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie • Hacker News Board

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#101

Post by burkaman » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:16 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #95

Jormundir wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apprenticeships aren't a good answer either, though. They create too much of a caste system, and are very restricting. What if at 18 I don't actually know what I want to do? If I join an apprenticeship I'm learning one thing. What if I don't like that one thing? What if I get 5 years into an apprenticeship and realize I can't get to the level I want to be at? I have to start over from zero in another field? I don't l…

Ask Tobias Lütke, founder of Shopify, if apprenticeship restricted him.

It probably did restrict him, he still works in the industry of his apprenticeship. The point is, what if he realized two years in, or five years in, that he didn't want to be a programmer?

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#102

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:17 PM UTC

Jormundir wrote: post #92

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the reasons you point to are the result of guilds, which were very territorial about their workers and markets. What I am proposing is for apprenticeships to be democratized by being made available for any employer willing to accept the wage subsidy. So if you decide after 5 years that engineering sucks, you can always find an apprenticeship elsewhere (assuming your former employer doesn't give you a dreadful…

This is an interesting topic to brew on. There would certainly be a lot of problems that would be tough to address using apprenticeship, but it's not like our current education system is lacking in problems. I wonder, though, how apprentices would fair in competition with people having general education and degree focus. Fields require skills to change over time, and quite quickly now. I wonder if an apprentice would…

The subsidy should come from the state, as it does for other forms of education. Honestly I think apprenticeships should start at 16 (and if I had my way, 14. I live in a generally rural community and kids in the sticks learn how to work a tractor pretty young).

Ultimately, people's competitiveness comes from their investment in their own skills. As Ron White taught us, "you can't fix stupid." What you can do is ensure that people will be working (instead of claiming welfare, etc), and that if their skills atrophy or their job is automated away, back to a new apprenticeship. Better than getting a new 4 year B.S.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#103

Post by mellery451 » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:17 PM UTC

rco8786 wrote: post #47

jwoah12 wrote: post #15

I think the major disconnect here is in the industry's general inability to recognize ability through the standard interview processes. On one hand you have the common whiteboard coding interviews popular among the big tech players (and much of the rest of the industry). I'm definitely biased here, as someone who is average/below average at these types of interviews but an above average (I hope) developer, but I don'…

Lots of companies do that, fwiw...though I agree that many companies may benefit from doing it more instead of blindly following the "big tech" whiteboard style. Here's the thing about the whiteboard coding interviews: A) There's a huge false negative rate. I.E. a lot of good engineers get turned down because of a bad whiteboard exercise. B) The "big tech" companies know this and do not care . They have people who wa…

it's the false positives that worry me more - that is, the well-practiced whiteboard coder who cannot actually design a maintainable system or the sociopath or brilliant jerk who nobody can stand to work with.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#104

Post by cortesoft » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:17 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #87

sbov wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this a problem? It's like saying that there's a shortage of X because I have a business idea that won't work unless I can pay all my workers minimum wage.

Whether it is a problem or not can be debated, but it IS a shortage. If we don't say this is a shortage, then nothing ever would be, unless there is literally 0 supply of something. As long as there is at least 1 of something, there will always be at least SOME price you could pay to get it. In economics, a shortage means the price of something fails to rise to reach an equilibrium, which is EXACTLY this situation: h…

Actually, I think I am wrong. The price HAS risen, but lots of people can't or won't pay. This doesn't meet the technical definition of a shortage:

In common use, the term "shortage" may refer to a situation where most people are unable to find a desired good at an affordable price, especially where supply problems have increased the price. "Market clearing" happens when all buyers and sellers willing to transact at the equilibrium price are able to find partners. There are almost always willing buyers at a lower-than-market-clearing price; the narrower technical definition doesn't consider failure to serve this demand as a "shortage", even if it would be described that way in a social or political context (which the simple model of supply and demand does not attempt to encompass).

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#105

Post by mariopt » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:18 PM UTC

"Talent" is one of those words that we should erase from you dictionary. Personally, I don't believe in "talent".

The industry thinks you're "talented", usually, if you're a jack of all trades and managed to get things done without having in consideration if understand what you're doing or if you're just a tutorial driven guy ( aka the design who uses a js hype framework and become an engineer in 4 weeks). For me this heart breaking because I actually enjoy my work despite the bad days everybody faces at it.

Every 3 years or so you need to reinvent yourself and learn new stuff and still be productive! People think that getting you of college means that you're production ready and that you don't need time to learn or even 1 week off to be updated.

The "talent" shortage is just another way of saying:"We don't find enough cheap jacks of all trades out there that can handle everything. It's quite bad because we need to hire expensive managers that won't train then and make (force) them solve to tickets no matter what."

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#106

Post by taurath » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:20 PM UTC

up_and_up wrote: post #63

I am a self-taught developer. I think part of the reason is that "software development" job requirements have vastly expanded from 10-15 years ago. Speaking generally, a decent hirable engineer is now expected to not only be able to contribute full-stack (front and backend) but also do an amount of devops as well. The tools have become more specialized requiring greater experience to wield them. Nobody with less than…

I'm also a self-taught developer and contributing full-stack and with devops, and I've got a year to go to that 5 years XP mark. I'd say I'm pretty productive on a day to day basis, but I do lack certain skillsets that are "required" in some interviews but don't effect my day-to-day (I learn things as a need arises):

Low level considerations: Its extremely rare with todays tools and libraries especially to have to dive super deep into compilers or engines. I have to do it once or twice a year to fix some terrible bug, so spending years learning about the intricacies of building my own compiler isn't that useful for me to actually get work done. Granted I"m not doing groundbreaking computer science work but I AM getting a full stack of performant secure and load-balanced services and servers up and running to perform core business work.

You can hire Jr. people absolutely - just make sure that whatever they have grown in first is something that you use a lot, while they grow into other areas. If you don't have the budget for super senior do it all people, or if you are on a large team or company where a super senior do it all person would be slowed down there's no issue with hiring B-level or Jr. people - in fact, you'll probably get a lot of good work done out of them. If nobody took a chance on me then I'd be nowhere now.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#107

Post by jcadam » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:22 PM UTC

makesnosense wrote: post #29

I cringe every time I hear someone say it's hard to find talent. I've been a software engineer for over 12 years now and I know I'm good at it. My problem is that I truly suck at interviewing. I have no social issues whatsoever, I'm just a normal guy outside the interview room, but when I do get in there - I'm at my absolute worse. I've been out of work for going on 8 months now and I just don't get it. I've tried ma…

I feel your pain. I've managed to do enough interviews that I no longer appear to be nervous, but my brain still just does not work correctly when in an interview situation. Hell, I once used a goto during an interview for a C++ job because I was so stressed out I could not recall the concept of loops.

I have literally hung up the phone after a live(remote) coding interview and had the answer to the problem that had stumped me pop into my head seconds later. Similar things have happened with driving/flying home from an on-site whiteboard interview.

My best-ever interview performance came after a year of looking for a new job. I was so beaten down and emotionally exhausted I showed up for a coding interview knowing I would fail, and I just did not care. No stress. Got the job.

So I guess that would be the secret for me, I have to not care if I get the job or not. Easier said than done.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#108

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:23 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #87

sbov wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this a problem? It's like saying that there's a shortage of X because I have a business idea that won't work unless I can pay all my workers minimum wage.

Whether it is a problem or not can be debated, but it IS a shortage. If we don't say this is a shortage, then nothing ever would be, unless there is literally 0 supply of something. As long as there is at least 1 of something, there will always be at least SOME price you could pay to get it. In economics, a shortage means the price of something fails to rise to reach an equilibrium, which is EXACTLY this situation: h…

[deleted]

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#109

Post by xlm1717 » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

Silfen wrote: post #90

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #13

I have said it a million times before and I will say it as long as necessary to fix our employment-education conundrum: you do not learn how to work by sitting in class, you learn to work by going to work. We need publicly subsidized apprenticeships to replace the assumed role of the outrageously expensive 4 year college degree as the primary means of acquiring skills for the modern labor force. There is a place for…

I agree with the thrust of your argument. Pretty much no one gets job training from university, they get it when they start actually working. There is a big problem, however, and it's only going to get worse. If all your training is in a specific industry, what happens when that job gets outsourced or automated away? I'm not sure I completely buy it, but there is a case to be made for generalist education as preparat…

I would say that's a risk that someone who goes through specialist training should factor into their life plans.

Re: The Tech Talent Shortage Is a Lie

#110

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #101

bryanlarsen wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask Tobias Lütke, founder of Shopify, if apprenticeship restricted him.

It probably did restrict him, he still works in the industry of his apprenticeship. The point is, what if he realized two years in, or five years in, that he didn't want to be a programmer?

As I have written elsewhere on this thread, this is why we have state-funded apprenticeships. It is far cheaper than 4 years at college, and it will also reduce costs for colleges that don't have to accommodate students who would otherwise be off at a debt-free apprenticeship.