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Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

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Re: Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

#141
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get out there and join political organizations. Another website just isn't going to change things.

I don't know twitter is "just a website" and it's helped change lots of things all over the world, so......

Twitter's influence in politics is not really the result of the programmers' efforts. It's the result of the politically active people using it.

The Twitter platform is at best necessary but not sufficient for its effects. But lots of things are in the same boat. All basic utilities are required for twitter to work, but you wouldn't credit food, waste, and electric companies for such things. And at worst, Twitter isn't even necessary.

Re: Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

#142

I was arrested while hiking and acquitted because I did nothing wrong. But the police never returned my expensive sun glasses or my expensive optical water purifier. "We don't have them."

Ah, sorry to hear the pigs robbed you. Happens to the best of us.

I'll also observe that you probably had to spend cash on a lawyer in order to prove your innocence.

Re: Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

#143
post #106

Ugh, so much misinformation. Having lurked here for a while HN seems to think civil forfeiture is the boogie man. To clarify a few things, at least on the county level: 1) There are always drugs when property is seized this way. I review every single civil forfeiture in a rather large county, and the affidavits officers submit read something like: "I stopped Bob after an informant purchased a large amount of heroin f…

> To clarify a few things, at least on the county level: > I review every single civil forfeiture in a rather large county Which county is that, and is your county representative of all counties in the US? > the affidavits officers submit read something like: "I stopped Bob after an informant purchased a large amount of heroin from Bob, Bob had syringes, heroin, weed, a scale for weighing drugs etc... on his person,…

> Which county is that, and is your county representative of all counties in the US?

Multnomah County, Oregon (I cited to our state statute though... most that I have seen are very similar). Seizure law is either State or Federal.

> If that's usually the case, why wasn't Bob arrested? In your scenario, he had illegal drugs in his possession, so an arrest seems more appropriate than a simple seizure.

Bob usually is arrested. Bob often pleas out, rats out his friends and is not charged, or occasionally is arrested and not charged because the DAs office is overworked as it is. The civil forfeiture is entirely separate from the criminal proceedings. I agree though: for example, the young man that was on the train a while back who had a large amount of money on his person should not have had it seized. That was absurdly bogus. But, as far as I can tell, that was an anomaly.

> Lets say Bill, who is unbanked, wants to buy a car. He saved the money for it in cash under his mattress, and now has $3000. He's transporting it, and a cop pulls him over, thinks "CASH == DRUG MONEY" and seizes it.

First, Bill would have to have drugs on him, at least in the State of Oregon, and most states. That is what constitutes "prohibited conduct" under the seizure statutes. Also, having a bank account does not matter. This is a civil case, so Bill would just appear in court and prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the money is not from drugs. He could say "I have a job, this is my savings" or "my grandmother gave me $3,000 to buy a car." No need for loads of evidence - opposing counsel likely cannot refute anything he says. A judge would then order his money returned. It is that simple. Also, if the seizing officer did not have probable cause to believe the funds were proceeds of prohibitive conduct to begin with the judge would return the monies.

Caveat - I think I sound super pro-seizure here, but with all the bad stuff the government does it bugs me when something like this gets blown out of proportion. I guess you can argue that keeping proceeds of drug dealing is alright - usually it is cocaine, heroin, and meth - but this all feels very tin-foil-hatty from the perspective of someone who reviews civil forfeitures every day. I could also be jaded by living where I do - our court system and police seem to be behave themselves well compared to the rest of the country.

addition: there are other portions of the statutes that allow for seizure of profits from other conduct, like if you subject someone to indentured servitude, but these portions of the statute are seldom, if ever, used to seize funds or property. I am honestly not sure why.

Re: Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

#144
post #106

Ugh, so much misinformation. Having lurked here for a while HN seems to think civil forfeiture is the boogie man. To clarify a few things, at least on the county level: 1) There are always drugs when property is seized this way. I review every single civil forfeiture in a rather large county, and the affidavits officers submit read something like: "I stopped Bob after an informant purchased a large amount of heroin f…

https://www.google.com/search?q=civil+forfeiture+abuse

Plenty of examples of potentially innocent citizens being effected by this tactic. Heck, there's even an entire website dedicated to it: http://endforfeiture.com/ - Plenty of data there.

Re: Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

#145
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless it is to defend gun ownership? (clueless UK citizen here)

Tons (if not all) of gun laws exist in the US that are unconstitutional. You many not know this as a UK citizen but the gun industry in the US is very regulated, e.g. creating a gun from scratch by yourself and selling it to someone else is illegal.

.... it would seem to be a fairly extreme interpretation of the 2nd amendment to support the creation of uncontrolled, unsafe, unlicensed, untracked firearms.

The 2nd amendment just says you have to be able to own and carry weapons, with a rough implication that they should be fit for military purpose. The idea that registration or quality or safety requirements are somehow unconstitutional is and has always been absurd.

Re: Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

#146
post #100

Serious question. We're all problem solvers here. There has got to be a better way to get our elected leaders to pay more immediate attention to blatantly immoral and unconstitutional stuff like this. As developers and engineers we should come up with a technology to force issue on things like this. I'm pretty tired of reading a story like this and feeling helpless to change it,

Get out there and join political organizations. Another website just isn't going to change things.

@Retra A tool is always only as good as the person using it. The point is webstites and IT can make a difference.

Re: Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

#147
"If you believe -- as many economists do -- that the rule of law is a key determinant of a nation’s prosperity, then you should be worried about this. Stop-and-seize should be stopped."

A good book that talks about this is "The Locus Effect" http://www.amazon.com/Locust-Effect-Poverty-Requires-Violenc...

Re: Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

#148
It seems pretty clear to me the problem here is misaligned incentives. If the police weren't allowed to keep seized money, and where it did end up was disconnected enough, there would be little reason to confiscate property without due cause.

Where we could redirect the money that it didn't cause problems is an interesting question, and I'm not sure I know of an answer that doesn't create other considerable problems.

Re: Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

#149
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one would argue illegally obtained money cannot be confiscated. A bank robber cannot keep his stolen money, or someone selling stolen goods, or a drug dealer. The trouble with civil asset forfeiture, as its properly known, is that the burden of proof has been shifted to the accused. So, instead of the state having to prove your money is illegally obtained, or that any crime was committed, you have to prove there w…

A suspected bank robber gets arrested when the money is kept. The outcome of the arrest is a conviction or an acquittal, which (automatically) determines the fate of the money. That's different from what is described in the article

Forfeiture was designed for cases like this: A bank robbery suspect is arrested with cash on him. The police have no evidence against the suspect but obtain a written confession - the trouble is they did not read him his rights. The confession is inadmissible, the suspect goes free. Do you hand him his money on the way out of court?

In anti-trust cases damages are tripled as a deterrent, why not institute the same penalty for police? If someone wins their money back from the police they get triple what the police tried to seize.

Re: Stop-And-Seize Turns Police into Self-Funding Gangs

#150

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/ret... , "The use of mercenaries in warfare has a very long history—much longer, in fact, than the almost-exclusive deployment of national militaries to wage wars. Before the Peace of Westphalia in 1648 ended Europe's Thirty Years' War and marked the rise of the modern state system, medieval powers from kings to popes routinely hired private fighters to do batt…

I'd add that mercenaries were around, and were a serious problem, from the Late Middle Ages to 1648; some accounts I've read of the Hundred Years' War sound almost exactly like accounts of the Thirty Years' War 300 years later. France, like the Germanies, was reduced to a heap of ruins -- and not just because of the bubonic plague.
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