Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network

#21

Post by cjbprime » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 3:09 PM UTC

Interesting! Other people seem to think it plays the opening well, but it didn't seem that way to me. Consider this position:

http://chris.printf.net/deepgo.png

Every corner shows a joseki, so there's been no non-standard play. But globally, white (the computer) seems to me to have blundered by allowing the combination of the lower-right and top-right joseki and N10.

Would be curious to hear if stronger players than me (~1d) agree. Maybe it's actually just much better than me!

Re: Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network

#22

Post by cjbprime » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 3:17 PM UTC

Any chance of a source code release for the trainer?

Re: Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network

#23

Post by kyubic » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 3:22 PM UTC

This is cool, but it seems to think snapbacks are not allowed: http://i.imgur.com/HdOOpIr.png

Re: Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network

#24

Post by AaronBBrown » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 3:29 PM UTC

I am brand new to Go am trying to learn it together with my bright, but young (6 year old) son. Can anyone recommend some good introductory resources for to better learn the basic concepts and scoring? While general gameplay seems relatively straight-forward, I've found there seem to be a variety of rules and I don't understand the algorithm for scoring and determining the winner.

Re: Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network

#25

Post by JeffL » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 5:00 PM UTC

AaronBBrown wrote: post #24

I am brand new to Go am trying to learn it together with my bright, but young (6 year old) son. Can anyone recommend some good introductory resources for to better learn the basic concepts and scoring? While general gameplay seems relatively straight-forward, I've found there seem to be a variety of rules and I don't understand the algorithm for scoring and determining the winner.

Check out Sensei's Library Go wiki, Nick Sibicky on YouTube, and Janice Kim's "Learn to Play Go" series of books, IMO.

Also, the "Hikaro no Go" anime series is absolutely wonderful, and that takes Hikaro from a young and completely new to Go kid through to being a professional, with short instructional videos for kids after each episode.

Re: Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network

#26

Post by Jach » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 5:12 PM UTC

AaronBBrown wrote: post #24

I am brand new to Go am trying to learn it together with my bright, but young (6 year old) son. Can anyone recommend some good introductory resources for to better learn the basic concepts and scoring? While general gameplay seems relatively straight-forward, I've found there seem to be a variety of rules and I don't understand the algorithm for scoring and determining the winner.

As another beginner (still Learn to Play Go series' first book. (Partway through the second.) Sensei's Library online is often a good intro to some things too. For manual scoring, the important thing I think is to have a mostly completed board, at the very least borders have been all established so no outside invasion points from e.g. the edges, then if you want you can pretty easily re-arrange stones within boundaries into quads for easier counting and use either area or territory scoring. I like territory scoring since there's less to count: add in the captured/dead opponent's stones to their territory, count all the empty spots remaining. In most games with my coworker though, I use this app to score: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jimrandomh... (Must load pic from gallery.) Occasionally I'll compare its output to my own scoring or even take its sgf and run it through gnugo's scorer, the winner outcomes have always been the same on completed boards even if the exact numbers have differed...

If your kid likes anime, Hikaru No Go is great.

Re: Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network

#27

Post by ko23 » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

AaronBBrown wrote: post #24

I am brand new to Go am trying to learn it together with my bright, but young (6 year old) son. Can anyone recommend some good introductory resources for to better learn the basic concepts and scoring? While general gameplay seems relatively straight-forward, I've found there seem to be a variety of rules and I don't understand the algorithm for scoring and determining the winner.

Here is a great interactive tutorial that teaches the basic rules: http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/ I'd recommend checking out senseis library after you've learnt the rules: http://senseis.xmp.net/?PagesForBeginners

Re: Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network

#28

Post by meekohi » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 7:28 PM UTC

Has a decent concept of high-level strategy, but performs very poorly tactically. It makes predictable mistakes that look like what a player might do by "knee-jerk reaction" without considering the entire board state. Certainly the estimate of 4-5 kyu in the paper is ridiculous. Maybe 15kyu?

Re: Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network

#29

Post by fiatjaf » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 8:09 PM UTC

JeffL wrote: post #25

AaronBBrown wrote: post #24

I am brand new to Go am trying to learn it together with my bright, but young (6 year old) son. Can anyone recommend some good introductory resources for to better learn the basic concepts and scoring? While general gameplay seems relatively straight-forward, I've found there seem to be a variety of rules and I don't understand the algorithm for scoring and determining the winner.

Check out Sensei's Library Go wiki, Nick Sibicky on YouTube, and Janice Kim's "Learn to Play Go" series of books, IMO. Also, the "Hikaro no Go" anime series is absolutely wonderful, and that takes Hikaro from a young and completely new to Go kid through to being a professional, with short instructional videos for kids after each episode.

Nick Sibicky seems great. Thank you.

Re: Show HN: Play Go Against a Deep Neural Network

#30

Post by thaumaturgy » Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 8:21 PM UTC

AaronBBrown wrote: post #24

I am brand new to Go am trying to learn it together with my bright, but young (6 year old) son. Can anyone recommend some good introductory resources for to better learn the basic concepts and scoring? While general gameplay seems relatively straight-forward, I've found there seem to be a variety of rules and I don't understand the algorithm for scoring and determining the winner.

I second http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/, it's a great site for learning the basics.

OGS (http://online-go.com/) also has a large beginner community, but they have some trolls and sandbaggers so you might not want your kid on there unguided.

KGS (http://www.gokgs.com/) has a Beginner Room and a Teaching Ladder room, and it's sort of the de-facto online go community for westerners, but the Java client can be a bit broken and KGS isn't as active as it used to be.

And check for local clubs! I live in a fairly rural area and we (amazingly!) have about 6 regular members in our local Go club, and we love getting new players started. You can check the American Go Association to see if there's a club in your area (http://www.usgo.org/where-play-go), although their list isn't totally comprehensive.

The usual adage is "lose your first 100 games quickly"; once you've played around a hundred games and gotten the hang of the rules and basics, start checking out some of Nick Sibicky's videos on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/nicksibicky/videos?view=0&shelf...). He teaches at the Seattle Go Center and does a really great job working with an audience of beginners. Start with his earlier lectures, because they're more geared towards real beginners, with later lectures starting to target more advanced amateurs as he gets more popular.

Enjoy!