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Writing English as a Second Language

theamericanscholar.org

11–20 of 28 posts

Re: Writing English as a Second Language

#11

"Don’t say currently if you can say now." Nice read.

"Don’t say currently if you can say now."

Hmm.

To me, the most interesting thing about English is that there is a lot of additional meaning invested in what seems to be a choice of synonymous words.

"I am not currently married" conveys to me "I am not married but I will/want to be".

"I am not married now" means "I am not married but I used to be".

No?

[Disclaimer: English is not my first language, though by now I have the greatest fluency in it]

Re: Writing English as a Second Language

#12

I'm a big fan of this style, and I recommend Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" as the canonical take on it. He would have a field day with "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques"! http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm There is a tradeoff here though. Shakespeare's language was elaborate and complex but still powerful. He loved rummaging through the back of the vocabulary cupboard to find just the r…

Orwell's and Shakespeare's style are both to be emulated, in the appropriate contexts.

Orwell's, more likely than Shakespeare's. The context 'Iambic pentameter blank verse play in Early Modern English' simply doesn't come up that often. Although there is the rare exception -

http://www.runleiarun.com/lebowski/

Re: Writing English as a Second Language

#13
post #7

I share his stylistic preferences, but Zinsser is a prick. (How's that for simple and forceful?) He's a prick suffering from a bad case of déformation professionnelle. (Ha! That isn't even English!) To further express my disdain for his advice, I have made my response extremely long. Consider his first example: “Dear member: The board of governors has spent the past year considering proactive efforts that will contin…

> He judges everyone's prose as if they wrote for the same reasons he does

I don't entirely disagree, but the examples he uses fail in their own terms. They don't do the job the writers want them to do.

It's technically true that the timeframes are missing from the club-owners letter, but 'in the past year' is irrelevant to the audience. Do you really think it's exactly twelve months since they started 'considering'? Why should any recipient care?

You're correct that the phrase is there because the writers want to persuade the reader that they've been hard at work on their behalf. It's just such a lazy cliche that it doesn't succeed! How about "Bob, Sue and Mike spent the last three days interviewing staff about how to improve the way we run things." It's far more concrete, and so much more convincing. It's also part of a story, which is a great way to keep people reading.

Re: Writing English as a Second Language

#14
post #11

"Don’t say currently if you can say now." Nice read.

"Don’t say currently if you can say now." Hmm. To me, the most interesting thing about English is that there is a lot of additional meaning invested in what seems to be a choice of synonymous words. "I am not currently married" conveys to me "I am not married but I will/want to be". "I am not married now" means "I am not married but I used to be". No? [Disclaimer: English is not my first language, though by now I hav…

You are correct, there are cases where "currently" carries a shade of meaning over "now." The author is not saying never to use "currently." He's saying that in cases where either are ok, use "now." English diction can give some very dense and precise meanings (try reading Poe!), but often people use the longer word simply because it's more ornamental rather than because of its specific connotations. This tends to hurt more than help, as many of his examples show.

Re: Writing English as a Second Language

#16
post #7

I share his stylistic preferences, but Zinsser is a prick. (How's that for simple and forceful?) He's a prick suffering from a bad case of déformation professionnelle. (Ha! That isn't even English!) To further express my disdain for his advice, I have made my response extremely long. Consider his first example: “Dear member: The board of governors has spent the past year considering proactive efforts that will contin…

> His translation is incomplete. "Better" isn't a synonym for "more professionally and efficiently." "Better" could mean all kinds of things.

But really, "to professionalize... and to introduce efficiencies" could mean all kinds of things as well. The big long fluffy phrase is so generic and crammed with platitudes that it's only marginally more specific than "run better." There's a whole lot of phrasing there that doesn't say anything. While you can argue that the big words used have semantic content, their combination nevertheless manages not to tell me anything.

Look at some of the examples he gives of good writing. They're long and complicated, but they're saying something. Unlike the buzzword bingo game above, there isn't anything you can cut that wouldn't change the content. Simpler expression makes it easier to understand complicated content.

I don't entirely disagree with everything you wrote. For example, I agree that field-specific jargon is useful and even necessary for concise communication. However, I felt that one point needed a comment, because it misses the core of his point: the words may mean something on their own, but they still don't add any meaning to the sentence that wasn't there already, and that's why they ought not to be there in the first place.

Re: Writing English as a Second Language

#17
post #7

I share his stylistic preferences, but Zinsser is a prick. (How's that for simple and forceful?) He's a prick suffering from a bad case of déformation professionnelle. (Ha! That isn't even English!) To further express my disdain for his advice, I have made my response extremely long. Consider his first example: “Dear member: The board of governors has spent the past year considering proactive efforts that will contin…

You are, in the winged words of Lrr, confused and infuriated. For one thing, this is a talk - not a detailed essay or a class. It's meant to be brief and engaging rather than a technical deconstruction of others writing. He isn't going to offer detailed alternatives or examples because he wants his audience to stay awake.

He has contempt for her writing because he has contempt for her job.

He never said such a thing. He does, rightfully, have contempt for her writing because it is bad. It is bad as writing and it is also bad as a 'sentimental, idealistic sales pitch'. Are you saying a sales pitch must be written badly?

Should we really declare one approach to a subject "better" because it results in punchier prose?

Not punchier, but better, more evocative, more accessible to a wide audience. The sort of prose a journalist should write and Zissner is, after all, speaking to future journalists. You insist on interpreting 'better' in a strangely literal, obtuse way - it's a fairly common little flourish (yes, English has them too) - and makes sense in the context. We say things like that -'the artist conveys the sense of grief/longing/joy/whatever better than any neurobiologist/psychologist/etc' all the time. It obviously doesn't mean poetry can replace the sciences.

Now he's just being lazy. He laments that people talk using "the working vocabulary of their field." Why shouldn't they? It's his job as a writer to produce the working vocabulary of his field

He's being lazy? How is he being lazy? He's telling his students that they will encounter this kind of speech and it is, indeed, their job to translate it to something better.

His whole talk is very much patterned after the stylistic advice given by Orwell in Politics and the English Language. Read it if you haven't. You might find Orwell a bit of a prick too. Or at least prickly. He's also right.

Re: Writing English as a Second Language

#18
I agree with and like William Zinsser on many points, and I believe he has helped countless budding authors and language learners over the years to develop good writing skills. I know I read his books years ago and profited from them (I will never forget a funny introduction to On Writing Well, where he highlighted the point that good writing skills can only be developed through persistent, hard work over a long period by featuring a conversion between an author and a brain surgeon - who did writing "on the side" - in which the author chimed in that he too planned to do some brain surgery "on the side").

That said, English is a rich, beautiful, and varied language and we should be careful not to box ourselves in with arbitrary rules that limit our style. Mr. Zinsser's admonition not to use or over-use Latin-origin words does just that and is therefore too arbitrary to be productive.

Take the word "productive," which I just used. At its root is the Latin duco, ducere, duxi, ductus, generally meaning "to lead." So we get, in English, a rich range of words such as duke, duct, deduce, reduce, induce, introduce, produce, and all their variants (deductive, inductive, productive, etc.), all useful words in the right context.

Now there are countless words like this in English, and I don't think it is meaningful to try to sort them out from words having an Anglo-Saxon lineage and others thought to have punchier qualities. After all, well over half of English vocabulary derives from Latin and it seems self-defeating to limit yourself to less than half of the words available to you in choosing ways to express yourself.

Yes, do avoid writing in a bloated or hopelessly abstract style. Use punchy verbs to liven things up as occasion allows. But don't waste your time trying to sort words out by their etymological origin because words derived from Latin are not "the enemy" and, even if some of them are stilted, many or even most are not.

If I may suggest my own rule: do not mechanically apply arbitrary rules on word choice but rather choose your words to suit the context, following your instincts for what sounds right for your intended reader.

Re: Writing English as a Second Language

#19
post #18

I agree with and like William Zinsser on many points, and I believe he has helped countless budding authors and language learners over the years to develop good writing skills. I know I read his books years ago and profited from them (I will never forget a funny introduction to On Writing Well , where he highlighted the point that good writing skills can only be developed through persistent, hard work over a long per…

Use punchy verbs to liven things up as occasion allows

Neither Zinsser, nor Orwell (who wrote the famous essay with similar advice) say the use of such words is to be 'punchy'. I don't know where you and the angry commenter I replied to get that from. It's not advice meant to be make your prose 'punchy' but clearer and better. 'Punchy' is, frankly, dismissive.

Latin words are, of course, unavoidable and necessary in English. They're hardly all bad. Many often sound more 'formal' and important and are thus overused, though. The advice offered is really a call for vigilance and care - it's easy to slip into the overly-ornate style. It's particularly relevant to the foreign students Zinsser was addressing.

No style rules are immutable and absolute. But the guidelines offered by Orwell and echoed by Zinsser and many others form an important baseline. It's not supposed to be a narrow rail of a style you should never stray from. You're better off learning it well, though, before you do.

Re: Writing English as a Second Language

#20
post #19
post #18

I agree with and like William Zinsser on many points, and I believe he has helped countless budding authors and language learners over the years to develop good writing skills. I know I read his books years ago and profited from them (I will never forget a funny introduction to On Writing Well , where he highlighted the point that good writing skills can only be developed through persistent, hard work over a long per…

Use punchy verbs to liven things up as occasion allows Neither Zinsser, nor Orwell (who wrote the famous essay with similar advice) say the use of such words is to be 'punchy'. I don't know where you and the angry commenter I replied to get that from. It's not advice meant to be make your prose 'punchy' but clearer and better. 'Punchy' is, frankly, dismissive. Latin words are, of course, unavoidable and necessary in…

As I recall, the warning about overuse of Latin derives from Fowler and goes through Strunk and White (might be mistaken about the latter), where I think the contrast is drawn with words that are described as being more "vivid."

I stand corrected on having used "punchy" in a way that appears dismissive. I am in complete agreement with the rest of your analysis as well, including with your admiration of Mr. Zinsser. Believe me, I spent years trying to master style, and I highly value the guidelines put forth by Mr. Zinsser and others to assist in that process. As long as they are not treated as rigid rules, they are most salutary (or is it healthful) for our learning.

Gratias tibi ago.

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