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Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

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Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#121

Post by lqdc13 »

collyw wrote: post #107
lqdc13 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biotech also pays a lot less. If you look at current jobs such as "bioinformatics programmer", the salaries are somewhere between a biologist and a software engineer even though it requires more knowledge than either. Remember, biologists start off at around 35-50k/yr on jr. level, while SEs start at ~100k+. Basically, it is better to be a junior level SE than a super senior bioinformatician.

"even though it requires more knowledge than either" It doesn't usually require more knowledge. The majority of bioinformaticians that I know are pretty poor coders, and know just enough Perl or Python to count some stuff up an do some stats on it or plot a graph. They have no idea how to set up a server, write maintanable code, design a database well or keep a website secure. Obviosuly there are exceptions, but the…

Depends on the person. Basically, to be good at both is a lot harder than writing a web app.

A lot of bioinformatics is implementing elaborate algorithms in a memory efficient way.

Things like

- approximate string search using modified suffix trees

- some new variation of the EM algo using a new optimization strategy

- the whole protein folding field where many implement the simulations on a huge array of GPUs. Here you not only have to know how to write efficient code on GPUs, but also be an expert in parallel algorithms if the algorithm you are implementing is not embarrassingly parallel.

However, these algos will be thrown out in a month so they don't care about maintainability or uptime.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#122

Post by cryoshon »

IndianAstronaut wrote: post #120
cryoshon wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in biotech now, thinking of leaving due to generally poor pay conditions in the industry. Have any other reasons to share?

I flat out had a tough time finding a job in biotech. I landed one and the pay was 30% less than what a regular tech company was offering. I still want to be in science, but now it is a hobby rather than my sole source of income.

Ah, I also had a hard time finding a job in biotech, despite having some solid referrals and awful offers. Settled for a mediocre offer as a result.

Anyways, thanks for sharing.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#123

Post by anon4 »

markbnj wrote: post #7

So I turned 55 years old last Monday, am employed as a senior software engineer for a startup in the voter education and civic engagement space, and I guess I'm qualified to comment on this. I read this same refrain over and over, and if I peer just a little bit between the lines I think I perceive a common pattern. A lot of these people are just not up to keeping up. Learning the next thing is a wearisome burden for…

One piece of advice for people who don't want to learn new things: Learn C++. That Bjarne interview might be fictuous, but in the last 20 years the language hasn't seen any significant movement or change that isn't just "this boilerplate is now this one line of code". C++ is eternal (within the human lifespan) and will always be used in the embedded space. If it ever gets replaced by anything, it will be something that's just C++ with nicer syntax and the sharp corners cut off.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#124

Post by icelancer »

lgieron wrote: post #94
icelancer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is mostly that it's boring as shit. I did a stint as a COBOL developer / systems admin for a bit out of college since I actually took COBOL classes in college (believe it or not this is what we studied in Information Systems I/II and I'm only 32 years old... nice college education there). The language itself is actually pretty cool. I enjoyed working in it and learning legacy stuff; it made me appreciate…

Doesn't sound too far off from many Java jobs.

Hmm. Yeah, I guess you are right. :)

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#125

Post by danieltillett »

lgieron wrote: post #94
icelancer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is mostly that it's boring as shit. I did a stint as a COBOL developer / systems admin for a bit out of college since I actually took COBOL classes in college (believe it or not this is what we studied in Information Systems I/II and I'm only 32 years old... nice college education there). The language itself is actually pretty cool. I enjoyed working in it and learning legacy stuff; it made me appreciate…

Doesn't sound too far off from many Java jobs.

Isn’t Java the 21st C. answer to Cobol?

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#126

Post by danieltillett »

1971genocide wrote: post #109
collyw wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"even though it requires more knowledge than either" It doesn't usually require more knowledge. The majority of bioinformaticians that I know are pretty poor coders, and know just enough Perl or Python to count some stuff up an do some stats on it or plot a graph. They have no idea how to set up a server, write maintanable code, design a database well or keep a website secure. Obviosuly there are exceptions, but the…

"knowledge of biology" I am not sure you fully appreciate what " knowledge of biology" means. As a programmer who did a lot of molecular biology in the past - doing molecular biology is not simple. The learning curve for a lot of biological topics - especially the ones that get close to organic chemistry is really steep.

This is something that I have seen people with a CS or EE background really underestimate. The amount of biology information you need to keep in your head is huge. There is not a core of day-to-day knowledge that you can use and look up the rest when you need, you need to keep all of it in your head just to get the most basic things done.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#127

Post by ianmcgowan »

codeshaman wrote: post #100

The more I examine it, the more I realise that at this point in time, the programming profession is a trap. I'll try to explain it. 1. 20 years ago we were called "computer geeks". Young people fond of computers. This term does not apply anymore. Now everyone under 20 is a computer geek. My daughter is 5. You know what 5-yo kids draw in school ? User interfaces. That's right. Checkboxes and buttons and sliders. They…

I call BS (in as good natured and respectful way as possible), and I have my own numbered list to share:

1) I've been hearing this every 5-10 years for the past 30 years, and it still hasn't happened (which is enough to explain my scepticism but granted doesn't prove anything).

2) The hardest part of what programmers do isn't pasting crap into an editor, snapping blocks into scratch or waving their hands at Jarvis, it's understanding the frickin' problem and thinking clearly about it.

3) The second hardest thing is maintaining that clarity while holding multiple levels of abstraction in your head at the same time. Most people struggle with this and don't really enjoy it. It may explain why people that like maths gravitate to programming (and vice versa).

So, yeah, things are going to get weird (and awesome!), and maybe there will be fewer job codes, but there will be a role for "explains things to computers" until Skynet (or the Culture) is online. IMNSHO.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#128

Post by wyclif »

jpatokal wrote: post #72
cjg wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said: "And who wants to hire a 45 year old junior web developer?" That smacks of pure ageism to me. Just recast it to a racial context to see: "And who wants to hire a black junior web developer?"

Not so: the word "junior" implies that they're new to web development and need close supervision. If they're 45 and still a junior web dev, they're either incapable of moving forward in their career (bad), or have just done a radical mid-life career shift (not necessarily bad, but probably warrants some extra scrutiny).

Why would a person's above-average age when they begin web development warrant "extra scrutiny"? I'm baffled. This is ageism writ large, and there's no reason for it. Judge the quality of the employee's work, not his or her age.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#129

Post by wyclif »

cafard wrote: post #119
NoCulturalFit wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 30 and I feel "unhirable". Pretty much up to speed on most platforms and languages. I guess it's for the better. Flipping burgers is probably in my future, and I am pretty happy with it.

Why do you feel unhirable?

Did you notice his username? If he really feels like he can't be a "cultural fit" at age 30, something is terribly wrong with this industry and I blame ageism.

Re: Old Techies Never Die; They Just Can’t Get Hired as an Industry Moves On (2012)

#130

Post by collyw »

1971genocide wrote: post #109
collyw wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"even though it requires more knowledge than either" It doesn't usually require more knowledge. The majority of bioinformaticians that I know are pretty poor coders, and know just enough Perl or Python to count some stuff up an do some stats on it or plot a graph. They have no idea how to set up a server, write maintanable code, design a database well or keep a website secure. Obviosuly there are exceptions, but the…

"knowledge of biology" I am not sure you fully appreciate what " knowledge of biology" means. As a programmer who did a lot of molecular biology in the past - doing molecular biology is not simple. The learning curve for a lot of biological topics - especially the ones that get close to organic chemistry is really steep.

I have a batchelors in Molecular Biology, so I have a reasonable idea.
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