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The Government Uses Zero Days for “Offense”

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Re: The Government Uses Zero Days for “Offense”

#21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Against Americans? Yes. The rule of law demands it.

I think you're misrepresenting what the rule of law means. The rule of law just means we follow codified rules, not the arbitrary whims of an individual. The NSA is, I'm sure, very scrupulous about following the law.

"The NSA is, I'm sure, very scrupulous about following the law." Your certainty is definitely misplaced (unless that was sarcasm). One of many, many examples: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-b...

Re: The Government Uses Zero Days for “Offense”

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nick, our programming ecosystem barely satisfies the basic principles of software fault tolerance, much less self-healing systems. High assurance? Multiple independent levels of security (MILS)? Covert channel resistance? Completely out of the question! That said, it is somewhat true that when you reduce the intelligence agency activities to targeted surveillance with employment of 0-days, the onus falls more and mor…

"Nick, our programming ecosystem barely satisfies the basic principles of software fault tolerance, much less self-healing systems. High assurance? Multiple independent levels of security (MILS)? Covert channel resistance? Completely out of the question!" Original high assurance systems were done with Pascal, etc. Not much required in terms of programming past type and memory safety, esp strong interface checks. Plus…

The language's direct effect on fault tolerance is not always easily measurable. Even in C you could add compile-time instrumentation to discard invalid writes and redirect invalid reads to fixed-size buffers (failure-oblivious computing) and that's just a proactive measure. Recursive restartability, microrebooting, state transfer to stable storage, event logs for fault recovery and piecewise determinism via replay of non-deterministic events, and many other hosts of options are all language-agnostic. Of course, many mission-critical projects will mandate redundancy through n-version programming where you have say a C implementation and Ada implementation of the same spec running concurrently with some failover scheme. Point is most of it is architectural and interface-related, not necessarily language-related. Hell, L4 was written in ASM at first.

Since we can't get that, but instead mostly rely on cargo culting like "Haskell is magic pixie dust because math" for our software safety and availability, I find the prospects of careful HA research (which is more mathematically rigorous) to be daunting.

Software MILS and separation kernels are promising, particularly what Muen does with the Intel VT-x extensions and its rather abundant configuration tools. Getting that deployed is going to be an uphill battle given fault tolerance's neglect, but also because many might perceive the static resource allocation to be anathema to "high scalability".

I think you overestimate public resistance to surveillance. The Church Committee came and went quickly, and was forgotten and dismissed over the legislative band-aids that people blindly believed were as effective as that. Total Information Awareness too got restructured before anyone even blinked. COINTELPRO was not widely protested. DCSNet and FBI snarfing even less so.

Re: The Government Uses Zero Days for “Offense”

#23
post #9

It's good news to me. The NSA's mission means they're going to have to get in somehow . FBI, too. Bulk collection and subversion have huge issues. Targeted collection with 0-days in endpoints that we know are insecure is much closer to Constitution than most of what they do. If people want that to go away, they could always apply methods for building secure systems from ground up. I've posted plenty here and elsewher…

And you're cool with them doing it to you ?

Realistically, asking the NSA to please not exploit me offers no protection against myriad other adversaries.

Re: The Government Uses Zero Days for “Offense”

#24
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Against Americans? Yes. The rule of law demands it.

I think you're misrepresenting what the rule of law means. The rule of law just means we follow codified rules, not the arbitrary whims of an individual. The NSA is, I'm sure, very scrupulous about following the law.

I agree with the definition of 'the rule of law' you have given, however the point the above user was making is that government secrecy fundamentally undermines the rule of law since if no one knows what you are doing no one can determine if you are breaking the law.

Its like trying to referee a football game while locked in a windowless basement 1000 miles away. The only information you get is that at half time a note is slipped under the door reading "No one has broken the rules".

Re: The Government Uses Zero Days for “Offense”

#25
Let's just keep writing operating systems and security-sensitive code in C.

I'm sure this time we'll have even better development practices. This time we'll do better code reviews. This time the static analysis tools will catch more problems.

If we all close our eyes and wish really hard we can avoid inconveniencing a few programmers, save a few CPU cycles, and keep using C. After all, the performance is totally worth a few heartbleeds now and again ya?

Re: The Government Uses Zero Days for “Offense”

#26
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Against Americans? Yes. The rule of law demands it.

That point is so important that I hesitated to add a distraction but I think it's also worth remembering that the NSA has a defensive role, too. It's been much neglected in recent decades but the entire country would be better off if the NSA helped patch things. They're hoping some suspected bad guy doesn't get patched but odds are high that many Americans, particularly important IP-heavy businesses, are going to get…

Why do you think the two are mutually exclusive? I was under the impression that the NSA publishes security advisories all the time?

Re: The Government Uses Zero Days for “Offense”

#27
post #20
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misrepresenting what the rule of law means. The rule of law just means we follow codified rules, not the arbitrary whims of an individual. The NSA is, I'm sure, very scrupulous about following the law.

We have repeated proof of the opposite – Congress had to rush to retroactively legalize the mass surveillance programs, and much of what's been disclosed since is clearly unconstitutional. What they are extremely good at is using security claims to avoid ever having to see a real court. Most of the cases have been thrown out for lack of standing because it's hard to prove that you've been spied on when all of the det…

Clearly unconstitutional according to whom?

It is valid to criticize the state secrets defense which keeps the NSA out of court – it's not valid to unilaterally decide what is and is not clearly unconstitutional.

Re: The Government Uses Zero Days for “Offense”

#29

Let's just keep writing operating systems and security-sensitive code in C. I'm sure this time we'll have even better development practices. This time we'll do better code reviews. This time the static analysis tools will catch more problems. If we all close our eyes and wish really hard we can avoid inconveniencing a few programmers, save a few CPU cycles, and keep using C. After all, the performance is totally wort…

http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/heartbleed-in-rust

I tried writing my own commentary to go with the link, but I decided that it would just be a bad paraphrasing of tedunangst's writing.

Re: The Government Uses Zero Days for “Offense”

#30
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have repeated proof of the opposite – Congress had to rush to retroactively legalize the mass surveillance programs, and much of what's been disclosed since is clearly unconstitutional. What they are extremely good at is using security claims to avoid ever having to see a real court. Most of the cases have been thrown out for lack of standing because it's hard to prove that you've been spied on when all of the det…

Clearly unconstitutional according to whom? It is valid to criticize the state secrets defense which keeps the NSA out of court – it's not valid to unilaterally decide what is and is not clearly unconstitutional.

If it were all a matter of interpretation we wouldn't need an actual written constitution.

If it were all up to judges the constitution wouldn't be on display and would be written in Latin or somesuch. But the constitution is public, readable and fairly plain. Now maybe the constitution is outdated. Maybe it should be changed. I don't know that. But from what the constitution reads at this point a number of these measures are manifestly unconstitutional, and it doesn't take a mosque full of Koranic scholars to ascertain that.

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