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Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

nytimes.com

11–20 of 39 posts

Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

#11

> A federal judge on Monday partly blocked the National Security Agency’s program that systematically collects Americans’ domestic phone records in bulk just weeks before the agency was scheduled to shut it down and replace it.

Well, for what it's worth, he did say that bulk collection is unconstitutional, didn't he? Doesn't that mean the USA Freedom Act is now wide open to lawsuits, too?

Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

#12
The world is a better place because Edward Snowden helped create an enabling environment for transparency, accountability, and civil society monitoring of programs that make the world less safe and less free.

Perhaps even more importantly, I hope this public ruling will make it more difficult for any of us to tell our grandchildren that we didn't know[0] about serious things going seriously wrong.

0. e.g. "And, at that moment, I really realised that it was no excuse that I had been so young. I could perhaps have tried to find out about things."

Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

#13
post #2

Due to the nature of such surveillance - there is little oversight over what is actually being done. Which means there is no promise anything is being done. As a citizen, is there any way for me to know for certain or must I have faith my government is working how it claims to work? I'll explain... [Begin conspiracy theory]If a judge marks it unconstitutional or not or forbids them from doing it doesn't necessarily m…

This is the biggest problem isn't it? The lack of true oversight and accountability. First you have the Oversight Committee act more like NSA's Public Relations Office, and then when we actually have proof of abuses, they get protected or even promoted. This is what allows the abuses to continue and grow.

Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

#14
post #2

Due to the nature of such surveillance - there is little oversight over what is actually being done. Which means there is no promise anything is being done. As a citizen, is there any way for me to know for certain or must I have faith my government is working how it claims to work? I'll explain... [Begin conspiracy theory]If a judge marks it unconstitutional or not or forbids them from doing it doesn't necessarily m…

These questions don't even sound like a conspiracy theory to me -- I feel like it was yesterday that people were talking about how the NSA doesn't do any work on American soil at all, now the fight is whether they can collect literally every bit of communication in the country. It makes me sad to think that, at the end of the day, I have no faith that the government will do the right thing, and almost no faith that they'd even do the legal thing.

Maybe it's naive of me to be surprised, but until all this Snowden stuff it never occurred to me that it was possible for entire government organizations to just flout the law because nobody was watching.

Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

#15

The world is a better place because Edward Snowden helped create an enabling environment for transparency, accountability, and civil society monitoring of programs that make the world less safe and less free. Perhaps even more importantly, I hope this public ruling will make it more difficult for any of us to tell our grandchildren that we didn't know [0] about serious things going seriously wrong. 0. e.g. "And, at t…

Well... As the guy that did all of that let me tell you: it's futile. I knew back when Bill Binney came forward. It was all documented or otherwise obvious. From this I've learned something. People are HEAVILY biased towards the version of the "truth" that lets them do what they want. Like whatever they were doing before you started talking about this shit. lol. The WANT comes first for them. Then when you complain about all of this they assume the same of you. The actuality of anything is irrelevant. They assume you must WANT for it to be true. Then infer that you must necessarily be the kind of person who's WANT is to escape society. A loser. You hemerage status by talking about any of this. So you shut up. Honestly I don't think you did anything wrong... But also, I don't know what right is anymore.

Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

#16

The world is a better place because Edward Snowden helped create an enabling environment for transparency, accountability, and civil society monitoring of programs that make the world less safe and less free. Perhaps even more importantly, I hope this public ruling will make it more difficult for any of us to tell our grandchildren that we didn't know [0] about serious things going seriously wrong. 0. e.g. "And, at t…

Well... As the guy that did all of that let me tell you: it's futile. I knew back when Bill Binney came forward. It was all documented or otherwise obvious. From this I've learned something. People are HEAVILY biased towards the version of the "truth" that lets them do what they want. Like whatever they were doing before you started talking about this shit. lol. The WANT comes first for them. Then when you complain a…

>Well... As the guy that did all of that let me tell you: it's futile

Wait what? you're Snowden?

Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

#17
post #11

> A federal judge on Monday partly blocked the National Security Agency’s program that systematically collects Americans’ domestic phone records in bulk just weeks before the agency was scheduled to shut it down and replace it.

Well, for what it's worth, he did say that bulk collection is unconstitutional, didn't he? Doesn't that mean the USA Freedom Act is now wide open to lawsuits, too?

Thank heavens NSA have already redefined "collect" to exclude saving all the things in their database.

Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

#18
The fact that a court overruled the original decision in a technicality really means they know the whole damned program is wrong and they were stalking whilst the program was being shutdown.

These coward judges don't want to make a precedent. At least there are brave judges still left!

Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

#19
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... As the guy that did all of that let me tell you: it's futile. I knew back when Bill Binney came forward. It was all documented or otherwise obvious. From this I've learned something. People are HEAVILY biased towards the version of the "truth" that lets them do what they want. Like whatever they were doing before you started talking about this shit. lol. The WANT comes first for them. Then when you complain a…

>Well... As the guy that did all of that let me tell you: it's futile Wait what? you're Snowden?

> "... I could perhaps have tried to find out about things."

I meant that.

> Wait what? you're Snwoden?

Not that.

Re: Judge Deals a Blow to N.S.A. Data Collection Program

#20
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for what it's worth, he did say that bulk collection is unconstitutional, didn't he? Doesn't that mean the USA Freedom Act is now wide open to lawsuits, too?

Thank heavens NSA have already redefined "collect" to exclude saving all the things in their database.

This "newspeak" with regard to government activity (and the intelligence apparatus especially) bothers me. It enables soundbites where government officials can say things like "no, we don't collect X", with essentially no real repurcussions by the other (legislative, judicial) branches of government that are supposed to keep them in check.

You can see some discomfort with this status quo in some of the questions that people like Senator Wyden pose to officials from the executive branch, but unless you already have the secret decoder ring (which CNN and their ilk at least pretend to not have) you miss the point entirely if you just follow the popular news. This makes it easy to gain popular support for agencies like the NSA since topics like this are of minor interest to most of the voting base, and most people won't dig deep enough to see what they really mean when they say things like that.

I really hope that we get something equivalent to the Church commision in the next decade or so to mitigate the potential damage that could result from our current intelligence apparatus, but I'm not too hopeful. I feel like the information that Snowden provided was our best chance for that, but I don't see enough popular support to convince our elected representitives that it's in their best interests.

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