I'm sure there are 'ageists' out there but given Dave Winer's lengthy and well-documented history of what can only be described as a persecution complex, it's difficult to take this very seriously. The man has been beset on all sides by everyone from Google to business partners to conference speakers deliberately trying to give him a heart attack.
Ageism is becoming an issue for me
41–50 of 72 posts
Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me
#42I don't think it's the age, but Winer is out of touch on a lot of issues. His primary computing time is in a scripting language / environment that he built in the early 90s. Much like RMS, he has missed the train and while still has important ideas is frequently only able to implement them in a way that few others can experience. That and his new found mobile passion is just hilarious to witness. Confused about SMS a…
Yeah, it's not that people think he's clueless because he's old. People think he's clueless because he's clueless, and has been writing posts that makes no sense with increasing frequency. This feels like an excuse.
Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me
#43From one of Dave's responses in the comments:
Next time you think a 54-year-old is washed up, remember what you just said.
Not only that we have a lot more money than you and we know a lot more too. :-)
I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that smiley meant he was being ironic, but it was still too funny to not point out.
Based on the fact that he can still get so offended by something like this, unlike edw519 in this HN thread (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1052618), it seems Dave hasn't reached his full cognitive maturity as of yet (not to mention that elsewhere in the comments Dave admits that he is unable to enact change or persuade others on any meaningful level). Given this, I'm willing to bet there are at least a few people reading his blog that are younger, have more money, and have more knowledge than him.
Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me
#44That's what you get when you employ feminists to run the Human Resources department (as in most medium-size tech startups) instead of doing it yourself.
Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me
#45What we all seem to agree on is, people of different ages act differently. To the extent generalities can be draw, and to the degree these are used to spot-evaluate someone you've just met (job interview, radio survey etc), this is ageism.
It happens because it works, at least 80% of the time.
Its unfair because important decisions are made about people (me) with too little information. Yes I'm old, but I actually have kept learning.
Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me
#46Well, but what if it's true?
On the macro scale, I think it's obvious that people are getting smarter. If you compare people now with people 1000 years ago, it is obvious that the average IQ now is higher than it was then. If you compare with people 10k years ago, 100k ago .. no contest. There was a time when calculus was something only the smartest people in the world understood. Now it is a subject routinely taught in high school. All of human progress has been written by young people getting smarter than old people, and proving the old people wrong.
The question then should not be are young people smarter than old people, but is the difference in generational intelligence so great that it is noticeable? I don't know for sure the answer to that, but one has to ask what are the origins of the ageism prejudice in the first place.
Not saying that any kind of discrimination is acceptable, there certainly are highly intelligent, highly competent older people out there. But there are also a bunch of old people who stopped learning anything new 30 years ago, who nevertheless own a lot more stuff than their children and more political power than they deserve to have, and we should be able to recognize that too.
Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me
#47Must...resist...w(h)iner...joke...
Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me
#48Wait until children learn how to type with their brainwaves. Then you'll be the old slow guy sitting there with the keyboard because your brain won't do that anymore (a la people raised by wolves)
Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me
#49Should we start looking into techniques for keeping the mind and body young? One measure would probably be how quickly you can learn new technologies and methods for getting work done. As I get older, I'm always trying to learn something new and coming up with ideas for solving problems. The last thing I want my employer to think is that I'm only good for maintaining the existing code. Another thing is how well you c…
This would tend to confirm the "ageism" that Weiner is talking about. If a young body and mind is a good thing, an old body and mind is not. I guess the "Ageist" position is that yes, human bodies and brains do decay, but experience and wisdom precisely mitigate this. It seems a little absurd.
I think the ageist position is that experience and wisdom aren't enough to counteract the brain's decline as one ages. So really this is an argument about two things: 1. The rate of cognitive decline and 2. the value of experience. The former varies with each individual and can be mitigated with proper nutrition and exercise. The latter varies depending on the task.
Oh, and in case anyone disputes that cognitive abilities decline with age: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_and_aging#Memory_decline...
Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
What types of companies were you interviewing at? I've really never seen anything but ageism in the favor of younger people.
One was a consulting company, and the other person to tell me that was a recruiter as a reason for not submitting me for a job i.e., "they're looking for someone more senior"
See, that's actually quite interesting. Both of those live and die by their reputation, and for both of them, you would have been the "product" - the consultant to send to customers, and the potential recruit to present to companies.
As a self-employed consultant I have found that some people get nervous when they find out my age (25, started when I was 23) - presumably because consultants are selling their expertise and judgment to someone who lacks the skills or confidence, else they wouldn't need you. Confidence is a big part of what you're selling. Nobody gives a shit if the 3D engine in a game is written by a 18 year old genius living with his parents, but you're less likely to present him to enterprise customers. Hiring grey-haired sages oozing confidence probably makes business sense for consulting companies - skill may well be secondary; besides, measuring performance is notoriously difficult in the first place.
Similarly, the recruiter may not have been terribly confident themselves and were looking for a proxy who would project confidence.