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Living and Dying on Airbnb

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Re: Living and Dying on Airbnb

#41

Post by sundaeofshock »

rudedogg wrote: post #31
rdancer wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks more like criminal negligence. Insurance is for things that cannot be foreseen or prevented. This looks more like a case of a missed inspection.

Their residential tree swing inspector must have missed his yearly visit.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic, but there are people who can be hired to inspect trees to make sure they are healthy and structurally sound. If a host is going to highlight a tree swing as an amenity of a property, then they should should inspect that tree on an annual basis, if only to protect themselves from potential liability issues. In this instance, that would have likely prevented this tragedy.

Re: Living and Dying on Airbnb

#42

Post by geebee »

dorfsmay wrote: post #40
jimjimjam wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. Airbnb does not assume any responsibility when it comes to inspecting the "soundness" of a listed unit, including any means of evaluating very basic things like working fire alarms, interior mold, bed bugs, etc. I agree that this was something of a freak accident, but that doesn't invalidate the central argument that Airbnb has no real way to ensure even the most basic level of safety of its…

How is that different than a tourist office providing you with addresses for nearby bed-and-breakfasts?

My guess is that the bed and breakfasts are permitted, licensed and subject to inspection.

Here's a link from a quick google search:

http://www.co.shasta.ca.us/index/drm_index/eh_index/ehd_prog...

"Permits are required to operate organized camps, hotels, motels, boarding homes, and bed & breakfast establishments in both the County and the cities. The purpose is to administer provisions of the State Housing Law and Health & Safety Code pertaining to the maintenance, sanitation, ventilation, and use or occupancy of residential rental facilities. Inspections are made on an annual basis. An application for a Permit to Operate is to be filed with the EHD along with the appropriate fee."

I don't think it's unreasonable to insist on a difference standard for inspection and compliance once a home is converted into a commercial enterprise.

Re: Living and Dying on Airbnb

#43

Post by runamok »

m0llusk wrote: post #37
rdancer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> freak accident No, it wasn't. What is more likely: that the tree became structurally unsound overnight, or that it had been like that for a long time, and an inspection had ever been carried out?

Limb dropping is not well understood and can happen at any time. There is no inspection that can predict limb drop. No tree rope swing can be assured as safe.

This is the core fact.

Assume airbnb has to go inspect a property before any use by a customer. The tire swing passes. Do they come back once a month/year to re-verify the property is safe? Do they say "Once a man was killed by a tire swing so all tire swings must be removed or using one is not covered by insurance". The 2nd scenario is far more likely.

I too feel sorry for the author but the world is not a perfectly safe place. If anything I think it has become SO safe in many 1st world countries that we are incredibly offended and angered by the rare chance death that occurs from incidents like this and we are searching for someone to blame because then it makes it seem preventable.

Re: Living and Dying on Airbnb

#44

Post by aardshark »

reviseddamage wrote: post #36

Erk... some of the comments here are brutally rational and ruthlessly logical. I would fully expect this narrative from decisioning AI units, not so quickly out of humanoids, at least not yet.

I don't know why your comment annoys me so much, but it does.

What other response could you reasonably expect (or indeed, want)? If there weren't any rational and logical responses to this article, that would be truly saddening.

Re: Living and Dying on Airbnb

#45

Post by prostoalex »

dorfsmay wrote: post #40
jimjimjam wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. Airbnb does not assume any responsibility when it comes to inspecting the "soundness" of a listed unit, including any means of evaluating very basic things like working fire alarms, interior mold, bed bugs, etc. I agree that this was something of a freak accident, but that doesn't invalidate the central argument that Airbnb has no real way to ensure even the most basic level of safety of its…

How is that different than a tourist office providing you with addresses for nearby bed-and-breakfasts?

The non-air bed-and-breakfast industry is quoted in the article:

"Had the hosts of the Texas property opted to become part of a community of more traditional B&Bs, they would have encountered a cumbersome but rigorous process, according to the Texas Bed and Breakfast Association’s executive director Connie Hall. “For new members, they are inspected with an overnight stay, and then every two years, our properties are inspected,” she says, covering everything from cleanliness to decor, and ensuring that individual rooms have a deadbolt, smoke detectors are functioning, and landscaping seems safe. “As far as the safety stuff, it’s mandatory for our members that they meet all these criteria,” adds Hall."

Re: Living and Dying on Airbnb

#46

Post by Mithaldu »

reviseddamage wrote: post #35
Mithaldu wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You put my thoughts more gracefully than i ever could have. We have this swing in our family garden: http://i.imgur.com/FsrfdVK.jpg http://i.imgur.com/v6zx0d2.jpg It has not for over 40 years, but someday it may kill someone. Everyone who steps near it knows this and treats it accordingly. Small children use it, after we do some spring tests that the rope, hooks and wood are fine this year. Adults maybe sit on it, no…

I don't know whether he did correlate your thoughts. Going by your analogy, it's not the same is it? You have a very large incentive to ensuring it's safe, your family. An airbnb host might not treat a temporary guest's safety, the same way. What I got from the skinny of that general article and from all of my experiences at Airbnb is that: You will get the feeling that you would get at living at a family member's ho…

The point is we don't, except for cursory checks, since we expect and know that anyone going near it has some consciousness of self-responsibility.

Re: Living and Dying on Airbnb

#47

Post by prostoalex »

Mithaldu wrote: post #8
jzwinck wrote: post #4

It is horrible what happened to the author's father. But it is also inevitable. Like a morbid million monkeys mashing away on keyboards, operating at scale in meatspace all but guarantees that someone will die whilst using the service. In America we have become accustomed to guard rails everywhere, and signs announcing the smallest hazards. This is OK so far as it goes, but perhaps it makes us a bit soft. Here we rea…

You put my thoughts more gracefully than i ever could have. We have this swing in our family garden: http://i.imgur.com/FsrfdVK.jpg http://i.imgur.com/v6zx0d2.jpg It has not for over 40 years, but someday it may kill someone. Everyone who steps near it knows this and treats it accordingly. Small children use it, after we do some spring tests that the rope, hooks and wood are fine this year. Adults maybe sit on it, no…

> Nobody would even remotely consider blaming anyone if something happened to anyone while using it.

I think it's all fun and games until emergency bills start coming in. If you ever encounter that situation, the law takes the victim's side, unless you can prove in court of law that reasonable safeguards have been insured

http://www.attorneys.com/personal-injury/slip-and-fall/can-y...

"To win a slip and fall personal injury lawsuit, you need to show that the property owner or tenant was negligent, meaning some action they took or failed to take caused the fall. With such trips, time is usually an important component in proving negligence. For example, how long was the hazard there and was it reasonable to believe that the property owner should have discovered the situation and remedied it before an accident occurred?"

Liability insurance is not exactly a new product, and an agent underwriting it will usually ask questions about swings, trampolines and other items their actuaries deemed relevant.

Of course, once you buy it (for a 12-month period), you'd have to amortize the cost of it in your rental listings, which somewhat removes the price allure.

Re: Living and Dying on Airbnb

#48

Post by prostoalex »

jzwinck wrote: post #4

It is horrible what happened to the author's father. But it is also inevitable. Like a morbid million monkeys mashing away on keyboards, operating at scale in meatspace all but guarantees that someone will die whilst using the service. In America we have become accustomed to guard rails everywhere, and signs announcing the smallest hazards. This is OK so far as it goes, but perhaps it makes us a bit soft. Here we rea…

People slip, fall and suffer under things falling on top of them.

Liability insurance is not exactly a new product. Underwriters that sell it do ask questions about swings, trampolines and other liability-generating items.

Re: Living and Dying on Airbnb

#49

Post by rudedogg »

sundaeofshock wrote: post #41
rudedogg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their residential tree swing inspector must have missed his yearly visit.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic, but there are people who can be hired to inspect trees to make sure they are healthy and structurally sound. If a host is going to highlight a tree swing as an amenity of a property, then they should should inspect that tree on an annual basis, if only to protect themselves from potential liability issues. In this instance, that would have likely prevented this tragedy.

If it were on a national hotel chain then maybe; but I think with something like that part of the appeal is the freedom it represents. No metal and bolts, just an old tire or piece of wood strapped around a tree branch. I don't think it's reaonable at all to assume it would be inspected. (if you're looking for that kind of security I don't think you'd use airbnb)

I think it's just a tragic accident, yes it could have been prevented, but what accident couldn't be? There are risks everywhere, and trying to remove them all isn't possible or efficient. We go after the low hanging fruit because it saves more lives. If this were carbon monoxide poisoning or a fire (with no smoke detector) I'd be with you blaming the property owners - but this wasn't something they should/could have prevented.

Re: Living and Dying on Airbnb

#50

Post by reviseddamage »

aardshark wrote: post #44
reviseddamage wrote: post #36

Erk... some of the comments here are brutally rational and ruthlessly logical. I would fully expect this narrative from decisioning AI units, not so quickly out of humanoids, at least not yet.

I don't know why your comment annoys me so much, but it does. What other response could you reasonably expect (or indeed, want)? If there weren't any rational and logical responses to this article, that would be truly saddening.

I can help as to why it is annoying. I felt the same way before typing that out, but still wrote that.

I seriously tried to honestly tell myself whether I would have the same opinion and view, was I in the shoes of the author. Would I be able to rationalize it the same way? Would I be able to marginalize that event to a statistical "nonevent"? I don't think I would.

But I assumed that everyone commenting on it had already exercised that viewpoint, and still shared those views. That is what I would expect of perfect decisioning AI units. That's not a bad thing. I just didn't expect it so early.

What do I think should be the response? Um, well, sue the shit out of the host and by extension the provider, or require insurance by the hosts. The alternative would be that this guest's death is reduced to a reputation negative (statistical nonevent).

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