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StarCraft: The past, present and future

polygon.com

41–50 of 104 posts

Re: StarCraft: The past, present and future

#41
post #7

Are there any scientific resources about how almost every mainstream success is based on a rather "direct" copy of something that already existed? Like here with WarCraft/StarCraft and Warhammer/Warhammer 40,000.

You will enjoy this documentary (Everything a Remix). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coGpmA4saEk Hardly 'scientific'... but how do you quantify copying.

haha, thanks :D

The question, I ask myself, is: What is worth copying and what not?

I could imagine, that most of this success is simply luck. Everyone copies a different part of an already existing entity and those who hit the right one win.

I mean, even successful companies like Google and Apple throw stuff on the wall an see what keeps sticking and they got some of the most intelligent people around.

Re: StarCraft: The past, present and future

#42

Blizzard's initial offerings were surprisingly dark and mature - both diablo, warcraft I&II and starcraft. Only starcraft's tone has not been degraded much so far (although the writing is weaker). I guess legacy of the void concludes a chapter of the company history. They are a e-sports company now. Their three latest games are gameplay driven with barely any story at all. Overwatch, HoTS and HS. Diablo III got a pas…

Yeah, Blizzard had a gothic tone in a lot of their early games. Unfortunately, they've replaced it with cartoony stuff for the most part. Writing wise they've fallen a long way, but it doesn't matter.

Blizzard's primary success since their early games (pre-WoW) is understanding and abusing the psychology of addiction and creating videogames around that concept. They make ultra-streamlined (sometimes to the point of being nearly featureless) and ultra-polished games which are usually super easy to approach but tough to master. The writing is generally cartoony/poor, but the moneymaking potential of each game is very large. They still produce some winners, if you can get over the above.

Re: StarCraft: The past, present and future

#43

Interaction design is a craft, and gaming is the subcategory of interaction design that most often ventures into the world of art. But the thing that most constrains the artform is this "little brother" mindset. Instead of waiting for society to understand and comprehend the medium, those who craft video games work to make their medium more like film or novels or music or other "high" artforms. So I get a little twit…

I think it is ok for an article to focus on one aspect of a game series without covering everything. Also the three unique races with different characters made Starcraft special.

Re: StarCraft: The past, present and future

#44
post #32

Interaction design is a craft, and gaming is the subcategory of interaction design that most often ventures into the world of art. But the thing that most constrains the artform is this "little brother" mindset. Instead of waiting for society to understand and comprehend the medium, those who craft video games work to make their medium more like film or novels or music or other "high" artforms. So I get a little twit…

Interaction accomplishes the browsing of information, just like scanning a picture or looking through a card catalog. And when folks make broad appeals to interactivity, they are saying that somehow the interaction of the gamepad is fundamentally different from turning the page of a book. But that isn't what we are thinking about as we get immersed in a game experience - we soon forget that the controls are there. It…

The novel parallel is a great one. Novels, like games, are not passive art or entertainment. The reader has to keep turning the page, moving left-to-right through the world the author has created.

I can certainly agree with you that writing can have a meaningful impact on a game, but it's not the reason a game becomes art, as this Polygon piece would have us believe about StarCraft. StarCraft is absolutely an example of how interaction is the core of the experience, and writing only helps construct a narrative to draw you into the experience, providing a cohesive metaphor to describe the experience - both during and afterward.

Like Mario saving the Princess or Donkey Kong collecting his bananas or Terran defeating the Zerg, whatever goal the game designer creates to propel you into the narrative is orthogonal to what ultimately makes the experience meaningful. The first Goomba in Super Mario Brothers is far more important to the experience than the Princess at the end of the game. Hell, the first question mark block is even more meaningful than that.

But you're right, that without the eyes on the Goomba or the question mark on the block or Mario raising a flag at the end of the level, there's no narrative to be drawn into, there's no way to describe what you're experiencing.

And you put it so perfectly: But that isn't what we are thinking about as we get immersed in a game experience - we soon forget that the controls are there.

In a great novel, the words fade away and the book disappears and all that remains is the dream world the author has written for you.

A game does almost exactly the same thing, but through action and feedback. The feedback can be text, voice over, artwork, animation, or any of the thousands of possibilities digital multimedia has opened up for us, but it should never try to be meaningful unto itself. This is where game designers get bogged down in trying to be like other mediums. Feedback is about rewarding the gamer's action and pushing into the next action, looking for greater reward. A mushroom comes out the question block, the old man gives you a sword, your wave of zerglings wash over a gas refinery.

You might argue that writing is key to creating this experience, and I won't disagree, but the Polygon piece absolutely fails to illustrate this, and so another wave of English majors says to themselves, "Well, if I can't get my novel published, there's always video games"

Re: StarCraft: The past, present and future

#45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will enjoy this documentary (Everything a Remix). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coGpmA4saEk Hardly 'scientific'... but how do you quantify copying.

haha, thanks :D The question, I ask myself, is: What is worth copying and what not? I could imagine, that most of this success is simply luck. Everyone copies a different part of an already existing entity and those who hit the right one win. I mean, even successful companies like Google and Apple throw stuff on the wall an see what keeps sticking and they got some of the most intelligent people around.

I mean, clearly copying and reference in art and culture is somewhat different from product development - art and culture is competitive in a different way from product development.

But one of the things that I've thought of is that copying with understanding greatly increases your 'success rate'. I think you can find that in the heart of the standard quote "Good artists copy; great artists steal". Great artists can copy with understanding and in doing so make it their own - thus steal. They now have a possession of sorts over whatever they took.

Blindly copying in the extreme case results in the literal cargo-cults. Copying with too much effort and you lose your advantage (the whole point of copying to is save effort).

Still doesn't give you a nice happy equation (or whatever) to figure out what to copy - but I think it lays down a rule of thumb that if you don't know why something works, copying it probably won't be great.

Re: StarCraft: The past, present and future

#46

Interaction design is a craft, and gaming is the subcategory of interaction design that most often ventures into the world of art. But the thing that most constrains the artform is this "little brother" mindset. Instead of waiting for society to understand and comprehend the medium, those who craft video games work to make their medium more like film or novels or music or other "high" artforms. So I get a little twit…

one trouble with game stories is that 99.999% of the time you know exactly where they're going because you're the protagonist and you will win or die.

the second problem is that there are only a few good writers of the correct style out there and they're all in television. (total hyperbole but the point should be evident)

the third problem is that video game makers refuse to accept their actual demographics and they keep aiming the story at 14 year old boys, who have awful taste, frankly.

edit: accidental word

Re: StarCraft: The past, present and future

#47

Interaction design is a craft, and gaming is the subcategory of interaction design that most often ventures into the world of art. But the thing that most constrains the artform is this "little brother" mindset. Instead of waiting for society to understand and comprehend the medium, those who craft video games work to make their medium more like film or novels or music or other "high" artforms. So I get a little twit…

Instead of waiting for society to understand and comprehend the medium, those who craft video games work to make their medium more like film or novels or music or other "high" artforms.

Yeah, seriously. For hardcore StarCraft fans, the narratives they REALLY care about involve characters such as Greg Fields, Lim Yo Hwan, Lee Young Ho, and Lee Jae Dong; not Jim Raynor and Kerrigan.

Re: StarCraft: The past, present and future

#48

Blizzard's initial offerings were surprisingly dark and mature - both diablo, warcraft I&II and starcraft. Only starcraft's tone has not been degraded much so far (although the writing is weaker). I guess legacy of the void concludes a chapter of the company history. They are a e-sports company now. Their three latest games are gameplay driven with barely any story at all. Overwatch, HoTS and HS. Diablo III got a pas…

To some extent I think that the writing became weaker as the story became more explicit. In Starcraft, you were a character as well --- people advised you and argued with you. Ultimately, although you take orders you were free to interpret the characters and events on your own.

In contrast, Starcraft 2 has you play as established characters. From the promotional material[0]:

> You are Jim Raynor, a marshal-turned-rebel on a vigilante crusade to bring down the Dominion and its nefarious leader, Arcturus Mengsk. Haunted by betrayal and remorse, some believe you may have given up the fight.

This writing task is much harder --- they need you to have a matching experience with the character they are portraying and yet still force you into what their predetermined plot points are.

Consider the case of Raynor rescuing Kerrigan at the end of Starcraft 2, after swearing eternal vengeance against her in Brood War. If the player were another participant in the world it might be reasonable to watch Raynor evolve to that position. However, because I as the player explicitly am Raynor and his choices are mine, Blizzard needed to convince me that saving Kerrigan made sense --- which they did not even come close to doing.

A similar thing happened in the shift from Warcraft II to Warcraft III --- you went from being a character/commander on your own to explicitly controlling another hero.

[0]: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/games/sc2/

Re: StarCraft: The past, present and future

#49
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blizzard pretty good recent track record with supporting OS X. World of Warcraft, StarCraft 2, Hearthstone, and Heroes of the Storm all run under OS X. Unfortunately, Blizzard's latest game, Overwatch, will not be coming to OS X. That question happened to be the first one asked by a member of the audience in the first Overwatch panel on Friday, November 6 at the BlizzCon 2015.

I wonder why not - they've always been pretty aggressive about Mac support, as you observed. Maybe the overhead required for developing a new FPS engine (which, AFAIK, Blizzard's never done in-house before, even SC:Ghost was another developer) was too much for them to have OS X support in the initial timetable.

I remember watching a video of some SC2 panel at Blizcon from 5-ish years ago, where they were talking about how flexible the engine and editor was. They showed some third person shooter level built in the stock SC2 editor, and it looked interesting enough. I bet that Overwatch's code is closely related to their other games, rather than something from scratch.

Re: StarCraft: The past, present and future

#50
post #4

It's unfortunate how much the original game has rotted, the online servers are up but the program itself is becoming more are more unplayable. The OSX versions have been dead for a long time, on windows it seems to be getting harder and harder to run as well. The recent job posting hopefully indicate they're interested in de-breaking them, couldn't care less for a HD remake, just a version that actually works again.…

IMO, the game works great on Windows. I can't imagine playing games like SC2 or CSGO on OSX. It's just not economical for Blizzard to do an OSX port. The game has been kinda dead for a while now, because it's so unaccessible to the general population. Games like Dota and League of Legends have taken the place of Starcraft 2 because it's pretty accessible to newbies yet offers a very high skill ceiling for those who w…

I played SC2 heavily when it came out and for some time after and I loved it. But you're right - the game does not allow someone to be casual or even semi-casual.

It is an unbelievably stressful game and you have to not only master all 3 races abilities but understand numerous and ever changing strategies around them, have excellent macro skills and understand timings, etc. If you don't keep up aggressively with practice and all these other things you'll simply get slaughtered over and over. And although their rating system tries to pair you up it has become harder and harder to find casual players.

I think it's one of the best games ever made and I love watching the top players to this day even though I do not play any longer. But I wish they could come out with a scaled down version with fewer units, easier macro and certain rules in place to limit cheese play, etc. Have smart units or something where different strategies can be used throughout a game and various units will intelligently play a certain role of scouting, attacking, defending, etc.

The truth is the game is amazing because of its difficulty and also unplayable for most people for the same reason. I am not "gosu". I have a life and can't play for hours every day - or every day for that matter.

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