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American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

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Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#111

Post by avar »

vasiliys wrote: post #54
avar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of a single society it would make more economic sense to stop having children, import foreign collage graduates, and execute people once they reach retirement age. But society, luckily, isn't some autonomous macro-organism that can treat people like individual cells in your body. So when we say that we value babies above all else that's a projection of the individual aspirations of the members of that societ…

The sentiment is correct, but even an average member of society who has to choose between two children is better off with the college grad than the incessant consumer whose cortex hasn't folded yet. The only valid explanation I can think of for our obsession with babies is evolutionary - you need some overkill hormonal persuasion to bond with babies. So every individual who has gone through such a period has some und…

I think both you and the parent I was replying to are guilty of the same fallacy: transposing economic value on the individual level to society at large.

People at large want to have kids, they want to not die from treatable illnesses. Even when those two goals are at odds with optimal economic realities societies will still try to attain them, because we build societies and economies as a means to an end to attain our goals, we don't live our lives purely to satisfy economic efficiencies.

We're an organism that's the product of billions of years of evolution, all organisms try to spread their genes to the next generation. To say that you're better off with one child who's a collage graduate than two who aren't might be true economically, but ignores what's fundamentally driving us all forward as an organism.

Does anyone really think the primacy of reproduction can be superseded by some clever economic theories?

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#112

Post by martin1975 »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #29
martin1975 wrote: post #25

We've spared the rod for too long, IMHO. Not saying we should abuse our kids or even reprimand them physically necessarily, however seeing a two year old as anything more than a terrorist whom cannot be negotiated with, can have detrimental consequences in their adulthood. Boundaries must be drawn early on or else....

Your statement is a performative contradiction. Your proposition is that a two-year old is akin to a terrorist who cannot be negotiated with, but your suggesting boundaries be drawn as a resolution presupposes that in fact they can be negotiated with (negotiation necessarily implying the setting of boundaries), hence negating your point.

You're very perceptive.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#113

Post by serge2k »

such_a_casual wrote: post #80
cesarbs wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but two-earner households are often also more economically fragile Can you elaborate on that? It doesn't make sense to me. When we were on a single income in my family, it felt a lot more fragile than now that we have two incomes.

It's explained in the book I mentioned. You would also need to educate yourself on personal finance by reading some other books to get a more holistic picture (The Millionaire Next Door is a good place to start). There's three things you need to understand about personal finance: 1. The first is that shit happens and most people don't plan for it (because they haven't been educated on personal finance). Most resource…

You realize the reason people move to 2 incomes is because they can't afford to live off one?

You realize that a lot of people don't have savings because they live paycheck to paycheck trying to survive?

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#114

Post by rosege »

such_a_casual wrote: post #80
cesarbs wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but two-earner households are often also more economically fragile Can you elaborate on that? It doesn't make sense to me. When we were on a single income in my family, it felt a lot more fragile than now that we have two incomes.

It's explained in the book I mentioned. You would also need to educate yourself on personal finance by reading some other books to get a more holistic picture (The Millionaire Next Door is a good place to start). There's three things you need to understand about personal finance: 1. The first is that shit happens and most people don't plan for it (because they haven't been educated on personal finance). Most resource…

For point 3 you might also be able to change your loan to interest only and thereby reduce the amount required.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#115

Post by leroy_masochist »

I agreed with pretty much everything until the following:

"Mothers are also holy in a way that fathers are not expected to be. Mothers live in a clean, cheerful world filled with primary colors and children’s songs, and they don’t think about sex. A father could admit to desiring his wife without seeming like a distracted parent, but society is not as willing to cut Ms. Waldman that same slack. It is unseemly for a mother to enjoy pleasures that don’t involve her children."

Uh, are we living in the same society? Moms are more sexualized today than they ever have been. Have you ever been to a daytime CrossFit class? Lisa Ann has been the most popular adult film actress for years, for God's sake.

I agree there is much progress yet to be made in resolving a variety of gender-equality issues....but the argument that society's increasing valuation of children is driving a newfound societal demand for Victorian prudishness in mothers seems to fly in the face of all available evidence.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#116

Post by dang »

adrianlmm wrote: post #107
dang wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are a sociopath Personal attacks are not allowed on HN. We ban accounts that do this. This isn't the first time you've broken the site guidelines by being uncivil. Please read the rules and follow them from now on: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

What is wrong with calling him the way he reflects to be? and honestly, I've seen worse name calling here, if you can call it like that anyway.

Why is "Be civil" a rule here? Because if it weren't, incivility would dominate and destroy the community.

This doesn't stop applying just because someone else did worse. On HN, please post civilly and substantively or not at all.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#117

Post by serge2k »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #93

I would like to understand the relevance of this article to Hacker News. Perhaps it would be helpful if I could see a demographic breakdown of visitors: marital status, age, and number of offspring. "Once our gods have left us, we try to pick up the pieces of our long neglected marriages and find new purpose. Is it surprising that divorce rates are rising fastest for new empty nesters? Perhaps it is time that we gave…

Anything is relevant to Hacker News. It's in the rules.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#118

Post by serge2k »

martin1975 wrote: post #25

We've spared the rod for too long, IMHO. Not saying we should abuse our kids or even reprimand them physically necessarily, however seeing a two year old as anything more than a terrorist whom cannot be negotiated with, can have detrimental consequences in their adulthood. Boundaries must be drawn early on or else....

You don't negotiate with a 2 year old, you have massive amounts of control over their life.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#119

Post by notacoward »

cakoose wrote: post #101
notacoward wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purely economic argument is not about which is the bigger sunk cost. It's not about which will create the most total economic value, either. It's about the delta in economic value from additional investment. College grads are already on an upward trajectory. Statistically and as a group, they're likely to create significant value without any additional investment. Babies, on the other hand, are entirely unrealize…

I couldn't quite follow. Are you disagreeing with anything OP said?

Yes, I disagree with the "obvious" conclusion that college graduates are most valuable. Additionally, I think the argument put forward supposedly in support of that conclusion - i.e. that we've invested more in graduates - actually leads to the exact opposite conclusion. As others have pointed out, it's not valid economics but pure sunk-cost fallacy.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#120

Post by martin1975 »

cwbrandsma wrote: post #69
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is a performative contradiction. Your proposition is that a two-year old is akin to a terrorist who cannot be negotiated with, but your suggesting boundaries be drawn as a resolution presupposes that in fact they can be negotiated with (negotiation necessarily implying the setting of boundaries), hence negating your point.

Wait, are you saying you can negotiate with terrorist or with 2 year olds? I have no experience with terrorists, but I have five kids. There are absolutely times when a two year cannot be negotiated with. And there are times children have to be taught that under no uncertain times their current behavior is acceptable. And that time is a temper tantrum.

I've 2 kids... and you catch my drift - they act (sometimes) like terrorists, and that is when you cannot negotiate, meaning, your word is absolute. Otherwise, any negotiation when they are acting like terrorists usually would end at their peril (yours too, probably), for they not know what they do. This is what I mean, "don't negotiate with terrorists".

Of course, at other times you can negotiate, and they get the tradeoffs rather than being absolute in their attitude, sticking to their guns, without thinking.

It is an ongoing commitment, a 'battle' of staying present, guiding them, drawing a line when necessary, and letting them win too... It is absolutely through contradictinction they will learn the most - what worked once, may or may not work again, behavior wise.... of course, there are absolutes - don't kill or hurt others, don't lie, cheat or steal...those are usually easier to teach. And then there's wisdom...that's lifetime learning.

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