American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#61

Post by davorak » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:53 PM UTC

001sky wrote: post #26

elinchrome wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Babies on the other hand are easily replaced. Someone has never had a baby.

This shouldn't be downvoted, because its part of the argument. eg, still-born babies tend to have lots of emotional reprecussions. But the OP's point is that doesn;t make much sense. eg, the human female is programmed to reproduce every 28 days or whatever... but herein lies the heart of the issue...biology, rationality, and emotion, ane even culture are all (or may be) at cross purposes when it comes to this situati…

> This shouldn't be down voted,

I at least down voted it because, the comment it was quoting from was supposed to be a "purely economic argument" and it acknowledged that most argument come from an emotional view point.

There are valid points that go a long the lines of the comment and your follow ups starts to add them but:

> Someone has never had a baby.

Does not add that detail or those arguments.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#62

Post by Centigonal » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:53 PM UTC

xiaoma wrote: post #46

tertius wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thought the sample of college graduates vs. all 22 year olds are a little different. All babies will turn into all 22 year olds. Only some babies will turn into college graduates. Therefore some of a population, if selected artificially (i.e. college graduates) will always be better than the whole population (i.e. all babies.)

College graduates are "better" than the whole population? Wow. I completely disagree and as a college graduate I would never say something like that.

Oh come on -- that's orthogonal to the point being made. However you define "success," it is true that some subgroup will have a higher potential of being successful than the average, i.e. all babies. Babies have the widest potential, but not the greatest potential.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#63

Post by pravka » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:54 PM UTC

This is extreme. I read this article when it made the rounds last year, and I hated it just as much this time around. Disclaimer: I'm a parent, and I love it. I also love being in a relationship with someone I trust and with whom I can talk about 'grown-up' shit.

Granted, there are definitely parents who hover, worry, or interfere with their kids', but, at least in the circles I run in, these are the exception more than the rule and most certainly don't represent parents (or marriages) at large.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#64

Post by cesarbs » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:56 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #36

such_a_casual wrote: post #28

For anyone who's interested in the rise in divorce rates, I highly recommend the book "The Two Income Trap". It basically tries to prove that the transition to dual income households damaged the financial security of many families. Pair this with the fact that the number one cause of fighting and divorce is money, and you have a better explanation than what this article provides.

I highly recommend the book "The Two Income Trap". It basically tries to prove that the transition to dual income households damaged the financial security of many families A great book. It can also be read profitably in conjunction with Matt Yglesias's The Rent is Too Damn High . School districts are weirdly tied to real estate in the U.S.; many places with good districts also have severe land-use control laws that…

> but two-earner households are often also more economically fragile

Can you elaborate on that? It doesn't make sense to me. When we were on a single income in my family, it felt a lot more fragile than now that we have two incomes.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#65

Post by ajmurmann » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:59 PM UTC

nommm-nommm wrote: post #59

ajmurmann wrote: post #8

I never understood the sentiment of valuing babies over all else. To me it always seemed obvious that fresh college graduates are most valuable to society, since we just finished investing a ton of money into them. Babies on the other hand are easily replaced. I get this is mainly an emotional argument, but it's still startling to me how opposite it is to the purely economic argument I made above. In fact usually peo…

> fresh college graduates are most valuable to society This seems to be a popular opinion on here and I really don't understand that. In fact its kinda fucked up. I can only guess there's a lot of fresh college grads on HN. It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. I certainly don't want a society made up of fresh college grads who think they know it all.

I strongly agree that we need a healthy mix. However, for fresh college graduates there is more time left to pay off the investment we made in them as a society. In fact I believe they will be at their most productive a little later than that. But they get there as they get older.

Edit: Typos

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#66

Post by ajmurmann » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 10:01 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #11

ajmurmann wrote: post #8

I never understood the sentiment of valuing babies over all else. To me it always seemed obvious that fresh college graduates are most valuable to society, since we just finished investing a ton of money into them. Babies on the other hand are easily replaced. I get this is mainly an emotional argument, but it's still startling to me how opposite it is to the purely economic argument I made above. In fact usually peo…

Babies are full of potential. Fresh college graduates...let's be honest...are less so.

Yeah and in the meantime they need a ton of investment, might die before they even get to the age to work or turn it idiots.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#67

Post by davorak » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 10:03 PM UTC

such_a_casual wrote: post #60

vasiliys wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the future cost of getting a college grad to become productive? Nothing. Future cost of making a baby productive? ~20 years of varying levels of investment.

The point is that the cost of the college grad is not a basis for economic decision making. Once the cost has been accrued, it's sunk. If we're making a decision based on whether or not we want to sacrifice the baby or the college grad, we can't take into account sunk cost of the college grad (if we're using economics as the basis of our argument).

> The point is that the cost of the college grad is not a basis for economic decision making.

The common assumption that ajmurmann and vasiliys are likely working form is that value has been retained during the ~20 years of investment and the cost is proportional to the value and there cost is a reasonable proxy for value.

It is an assumption that does not always hold, but is common enough to do as a first order approximation.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#68

Post by icanhackit » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 10:05 PM UTC

josephjrobison wrote: post #52

"Ayelet Waldman, where the author explained that she loved her husband more than her four children." Recently did some pre-marital counseling where they recommend that you put your spouse above your children. Seemed really strange to me and counter-intuitive. I don't know much about marriage at all, but if you think about it, the trickle-down effect does seem to make sense as setting an example is a good lesson for k…

counseling where they recommend that you put your spouse above your children

I believe this is incredibly important for a lasting, loving relationship. I've observed a few relationships where one partner's priority shifts so much to the children that the other partner is left with little love or consideration and their bond quickly degrades.

I could understand this behavior in a place where there's a shortage of food and resources, but in developed countries with an abundance of food and relative safety people are sabotaging their happiness and adult bonds by elevating developing humans above the person they originally committed to.

Additionally, some adults infantilize their household culture to the point where adult activities become a sort of taboo. I think we short-change children by not exposing them to regular adult behaviors and conversations. Certainly there are some things children should not be exposed to but the household should be as accommodating for old and young as possible. A healthy balance needs to be struck.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#69

Post by cwbrandsma » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 10:05 PM UTC

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #29

martin1975 wrote: post #25

We've spared the rod for too long, IMHO. Not saying we should abuse our kids or even reprimand them physically necessarily, however seeing a two year old as anything more than a terrorist whom cannot be negotiated with, can have detrimental consequences in their adulthood. Boundaries must be drawn early on or else....

Your statement is a performative contradiction. Your proposition is that a two-year old is akin to a terrorist who cannot be negotiated with, but your suggesting boundaries be drawn as a resolution presupposes that in fact they can be negotiated with (negotiation necessarily implying the setting of boundaries), hence negating your point.

Wait, are you saying you can negotiate with terrorist or with 2 year olds? I have no experience with terrorists, but I have five kids. There are absolutely times when a two year cannot be negotiated with. And there are times children have to be taught that under no uncertain times their current behavior is acceptable. And that time is a temper tantrum.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#70

Post by such_a_casual » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 10:08 PM UTC

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #57

pradn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone wants nicer schools. Wealthier people are more likely to be able to live in areas with good schools; they can pay for the rents and mortgages necessary to do so.

I don't understand what it is you're trying to add. I am talking about an issue of fairness. You're just pointing out the status quo.

I encourage you to read the aforementioned books. I believe the person you're responding to was just trying to point out that this issue is bigger than just rich people fixing the game.