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Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

nytimes.com

11–20 of 51 posts

Re: Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

#11
I am an overseas entrepreneur in China. I don't consider this article to be very informative.

If people invest money they shouldn't, without due diligence in environments they don't understand with partners they don't know, that doesn't reflect as much on the environment as the investor.

China is very welcoming to foreign investment. Once you have done the paperwork, you can basically stay indefinitely on a work-related visa for a small minimum investment. The total required money in real terms was only 30,000USD a few years ago. I'd be interested to hear if there's any another country with such a dynamic economy and physically safe environment, great food and range of climatic conditions that welcomes people from around the world for such a small personal investment? Sure, China has its issues, many of which such as an immature and ill-documented financial system, utility issues, poor internet connectivity and a weak courts system affect business, but openness to investment is not one of them.

There is no distinction made in the article between the WFOE ("woofie") or wholly foreign-owned enterprise and the JV or joint venture. Instead, an alarmist view is painted of total ruin lurking around the corner for all foreign-involved businesses. (The sums I refer to above are for a personal WFOE: no need for a local partner.)

Everybody knows the courts are oversubscribed, slow and corrupt. This results in different ways to solve problems, including less willingness to extend trust to strangers, the frequent writing off of bad debt, and in some rare situations corrupt regulator-based vindictive ingress, violence, kidnapping and so forth. (Most of the time things are not ugly though, and incidence of violence is extremely low across all of society, not just business. Much lower than the west in my experience.) Because of this situation with the courts, very often contracts are worthless (simply ignored). Cash is king. If you don't trust an employee (eg. sales manager who stole USD$60k in the text), don't give them access to funds. This is business 101, and is in no way unique to China. Why should a Sales Manager control your bank account, anyway? Why should you allow client payment direct to untrusted employees by theft-prone cash? This is just an example of management naivety - no inkling of common sense.

While I am still sometimes amazed at the uselessness of contracts here (I've experienced the "signed the contract? paid the rent? now pay double!" thing personally... solved with a mutually acceptable outcome - I moved out quickly and received a full refund), mostly it's just about learning how to deal with an unfamiliar business environment.

Overheads are often low, potential profits are often large, and we're allowed to come here and do business despite being foreigners. It's not always a walk in the park (frustration and "bad China days" are certain), but overall China's environment is not bad. Given the low regulatory threshold, taxation and overheads, it's really more of a land of opportunity than the west. In a western context, I never could have afforded myself the experience in business that China gave me.

Re: Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

#12
post #5

I am sure there is demand for authentic foreign food in China but I wonder how foreigners get in to open restaurants. I am not sure if you can just come in and open a restaurant in the US if you are not a legal immigrant. Legal immigration into China is a lot harder. For non immigrants it is not clear that there is any Chinese visa that allows for this type of activity. For example the only Chinese visa that sounds r…

I wonder how foreigners get in to open restaurants. I am not sure if you can just come in and open a restaurant in the US if you are not a legal immigrant. Legal immigration into China is a lot harder. Legal immigration into China is a lot harder

Actually unlike in the US, it's very easy here. You register a wholly foreign owned company, get a visa connected to that, and you're sorted. Total cost can be as low as ~USD$30,000. Total time expenditure, perhaps 3 months these days. Of course, that will also require paying rent on a property, and thus you would typically spend a little more time scouting for a suitable location.

Re: Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

#13

Biggest rules I've seen from working with chinese JV's; 1) Employees will attempt to steal IP and copy the business. This may happen while they are still working for you. If it's easy for your business to be stolen this way don't even bother setting up. 2) You need locals to handle staff. You're just a foreigner to be taken advantage of. They push rules and issues at you all day trying to get more. A local manager wi…

Employees will attempt to steal IP and copy the business.

This sounds a lot like the unfounded "don't tell anyone your idea, it might be stolen!" fear in Silicon Valley. If you are relying on security through obscurity to protect your business' viability, you're doing it wrong.

You need locals to handle staff. You're just a foreigner to be taken advantage of.

In my experience if you speak basic Chinese, personally hire and manage employees and pay and treat them fairly and offer income security, they will see you working hard and personally work hard and be extremely loyal to you, especially if you offer new skills and challenges.

The great firewall can be a bastard and your best with infrastructure inside the country and local knowledge.

Yes, domestic infrastructure is usually necessary due to poor international reliability and speed, but that's hardly an insurmountable or troublesome issue.

Chinese will often find a way to get something done with horribly inefficient routes and deals to the goal. Don't stress trying to make it efficient, this is China.

China can also be amazingly efficient. Look at automation in electronics supply chains, dirt cheap national next-day couriers, a relatively inexpensive national culture of 'book it the day you fly' travel, and often free international financial transfer to Chinese banks in foreign locations. Compare sea-freight, Fedex, rent-seeking travel suppliers, and the pain that is SWIFT. Not to mention Taobao versus driving to the mall, e-bikes versus cars, or permanently open restaurants everywhere! (Not to mention completing divorce proceedings for 8元 = USD$1.50!)

Dont expect your JV partner to work in the companies best interest.

Self-interest is normal in business anywhere. Trust and good partners are hard to find.

Re: Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

#14

I am an overseas entrepreneur in China. I don't consider this article to be very informative. If people invest money they shouldn't, without due diligence in environments they don't understand with partners they don't know, that doesn't reflect as much on the environment as the investor. China is very welcoming to foreign investment. Once you have done the paperwork, you can basically stay indefinitely on a work-rela…

Doing business in China is definitely doing it in 'hard mode' from my experience. If you can become successful there, where contracts mean nothing and guanxi with people in power is everything, you will probably plow right through anything you find in the states.

Re: Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

#15
post #5

I am sure there is demand for authentic foreign food in China but I wonder how foreigners get in to open restaurants. I am not sure if you can just come in and open a restaurant in the US if you are not a legal immigrant. Legal immigration into China is a lot harder. For non immigrants it is not clear that there is any Chinese visa that allows for this type of activity. For example the only Chinese visa that sounds r…

I wonder how foreigners get in to open restaurants. I am not sure if you can just come in and open a restaurant in the US if you are not a legal immigrant. Legal immigration into China is a lot harder. Legal immigration into China is a lot harder Actually unlike in the US, it's very easy here. You register a wholly foreign owned company, get a visa connected to that, and you're sorted. Total cost can be as low as ~US…

Good to know. I was referring to "green card" when I said "legal immigration".

Re: Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

#16
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how foreigners get in to open restaurants. I am not sure if you can just come in and open a restaurant in the US if you are not a legal immigrant. Legal immigration into China is a lot harder. Legal immigration into China is a lot harder Actually unlike in the US, it's very easy here. You register a wholly foreign owned company, get a visa connected to that, and you're sorted. Total cost can be as low as ~US…

Good to know. I was referring to "green card" when I said "legal immigration".

China gives out green cards to foreigners who apply after they have stayed for something like 5-10 years paying taxes with a registered business. However, they are in practice also a lot more friendly about being in-country on random visas, happily provide extensions, and do not kick you out within 10 days under threat of imprisonment if a business-linked visa expires, like they do in the US.

Re: Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

#17

I am an overseas entrepreneur in China. I don't consider this article to be very informative. If people invest money they shouldn't, without due diligence in environments they don't understand with partners they don't know, that doesn't reflect as much on the environment as the investor. China is very welcoming to foreign investment. Once you have done the paperwork, you can basically stay indefinitely on a work-rela…

Doing business in China is definitely doing it in 'hard mode' from my experience. If you can become successful there, where contracts mean nothing and guanxi with people in power is everything, you will probably plow right through anything you find in the states.

After starting a business in China I spent a year in London then a year in LA. What irritated me about doing business in the US was the pain of complex inter-state tax nexuses, dealing with government in general (TSA etc.), immigration and expensive legal overheads in general, the need to drive everywhere and the long distances to get to the rest of the world. Certain things, such as the lack of a global perspective in most of the locals, the cheapskate approach to employee holidays, and a half-broken financial system were very similar to China.

Re: Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing business in China is definitely doing it in 'hard mode' from my experience. If you can become successful there, where contracts mean nothing and guanxi with people in power is everything, you will probably plow right through anything you find in the states.

After starting a business in China I spent a year in London then a year in LA. What irritated me about doing business in the US was the pain of complex inter-state tax nexuses, dealing with government in general (TSA etc.), immigration and expensive legal overheads in general, the need to drive everywhere and the long distances to get to the rest of the world. Certain things, such as the lack of a global perspective…

Everything you say resonates with my experience too. And not to contradict myself but on the plus side for business in China, I found the expat entrepreneurs there to be pretty close-knit and more than happy to collaborate and help you out. That made things a lot easier and was probably the saving grace for many of my peers.

Having said that, after navigating those waters for awhile, I enjoy dealing with a clear legal framework, laws that are more often than not applied uniformly, and a government that doesn't stifle the free exchange of ideas on the internet to such a point that you need a pretty beefy VPN solution just to do a Google search.

Just my opinion though, good to hear you have been successful in your work - good luck and keep on trucking!

Re: Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

#19
post #2

It seems very similar to experiences I've heard about from friends running businesses in Russia and, to a lesser degree, in Mexico (where your business partners are more reliable but the government is horribly corrupt and obstructionist). One rule of thumb I was told regarding the early days in post-Soviet Russia was that you were either going to pay the mobsters a quarter of your revenue or the FSK a third, and that…

And if you are American, you are completely bound by the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, so you can't even bribe that mobster or official. Your rule book is going to be different. Foreigners really shouldn't be starting businesses in China, the rules (or lack of them) are just not in your favor.

[deleted]

Re: Smaller Overseas Entrepreneurs Find China Too Frustrating

#20
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, you'll get caught eventually, especially in the energy sector; e.g. Triton Energy. It is an incredibly effective piece of legislation, Jimmy Carter and company really gave us something that would benefit the world (you can't just say "this is how they do it here so this is what I do").

It might be benefiting the world in a way already - those who want western businesses in their area may decide to not require them to bribe so hard.

Or you know, if you want western capital, clean up your government.
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