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Ageism is becoming an issue for me

scripting.com

11–20 of 72 posts

Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me

#11
There's a reason people are more comfortable about insulting people based on age: everyone either has been or will be a member of the class they're criticizing. People who want to complain about a group without getting in trouble seem to often try to position themselves as part of or close to the group before complaining about the group.

"My girlfriend or wife is [group], and I can tell you..."

"I was in a gang when I was a young man, and let me tell you..."

"My brother is an IT guy, and so I can say that..."

With age-related remarks, no one needs to even posture. There's an implicit "...and I can say this because I'm one of them, or will be".

Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me

#13
post #9

Inside I think of myself as young. If you really did, then you wouldn't have even written this post. Like Dave Winer, I am also 54 and absolutely do not care what anyone else thinks about it. When I first started out I quickly rose through the enterprise ranks and was never taken seriously because of my age. As a wimpy looking nerd, I had always been underestimated by others and I found a way to use that to my advant…

Agreed. Of course, the ageism's definitely out there; if you're able to ignore it, good on you. What I can say, though, is that I've learned a hell of a lot more from older programmers than I ever have from younger ones.

Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me

#14
Ageism is a fact of life and, if you are too young to have felt it yet, wait until you turn 50 (as I did a few years back) - no matter what you do, people type you, they just don't see you in quite the same light as before.

I think this is in part because, as people, we are associational. We inherently relate to what we know. Similis simili gaudet ("like in like rejoices") is the Latin maxim that captures this. And younger people tend to relate to that which is new and exciting to them (this site, of all places, certainly typifies this, as one sees discussions all the time on issues that appeal specifically to the young). The counterpart to this, however, is that those who are younger also tend to be dismissive of the things to which older people relate, things which the older people themselves found new and exciting some years back - these are not just select things, they are the day-to-day things of life: social trends, the heroes we identify with, the people we go out with, the movies we watch, the cultural events that grab us, even the ideas we believe in and the values that we share. In time, for those who are young, such things have "had their day," become faded, and become foreign and distant.

That part is natural and perhaps even unobjectionable. We all become invested in our own generation to some degree and it is natural to relate to the things we grow up with and to believe in them, even if this means "moving on" from older things and from those associated with them.

But youth is also highly prone to lose perspective because, as Aristotle put in many centuries ago in his Rhetoric, the thing that most tends to characterize youth is a (false) sense of invincibility, what he termed in Greek the word we know today as hubris. When one is young, one tends to strut about and there is no room, when one is strutting, for those who are perhaps slower, less aggressive, possibly infirm. Yes, a young person can be kind and gracious and have all the good qualities too. But, at that age, arrogance can all too often be at the forefront. This propensity leads to the negative part of ageism because it types those who are older in ways that are unfair, prejudicial, and, indeed, foolish - when perspective is lost, youth fails to see the self-evident strengths in those who are older (the wisdom, the years of accumulated intelligence, the leadership strength, the wealth of experience, etc.), and this results in a net loss to all.

The reality, then, is that such prejudices tend to be inherent in how we function as human beings. They can be overcome but only by a conscious effort that will not likely affect the mass of people no matter how much the issue is raised in people's consciousness. Of course, that doesn't mean that each of us can't attempt to overcome it in our own lives, and that is the commendable goal we should strive for.

Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me

#15
post #9

Inside I think of myself as young. If you really did, then you wouldn't have even written this post. Like Dave Winer, I am also 54 and absolutely do not care what anyone else thinks about it. When I first started out I quickly rose through the enterprise ranks and was never taken seriously because of my age. As a wimpy looking nerd, I had always been underestimated by others and I found a way to use that to my advant…

For every issue I have to address, I have that many more instances of experience dealing with something like that. Many more iterations of similar patterns to draw from.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm 43, and have worked in IT for about 20 years. Even in that span of time I've seen the same ideas gain popularity, fade, then return again (under another name, or in newer packaging, but fundamentally the same old concepts). Gives you a lot of perspective to be able to avoid getting caught up in the breathless enthusiasm of younger people returning from the latest conference or trade show.

Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me

#16
post #9

Inside I think of myself as young. If you really did, then you wouldn't have even written this post. Like Dave Winer, I am also 54 and absolutely do not care what anyone else thinks about it. When I first started out I quickly rose through the enterprise ranks and was never taken seriously because of my age. As a wimpy looking nerd, I had always been underestimated by others and I found a way to use that to my advant…

Like Dave Winer, I am also 54 and absolutely do not care what anyone else thinks about it.

Perhaps that explains why you are also less likely to perceive it when it happens. Perhaps Dave Winer is more sensitive to this issue and that explains why he notices it more. I doubt that he is imagining this since you are one of the few people in IT that I have heard having a contrary experience. Perhaps you are simply an outlier.

Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me

#17
I don't think it's the age, but Winer is out of touch on a lot of issues. His primary computing time is in a scripting language / environment that he built in the early 90s. Much like RMS, he has missed the train and while still has important ideas is frequently only able to implement them in a way that few others can experience.

That and his new found mobile passion is just hilarious to witness. Confused about SMS and MMS (which he called multimedia SMS), unaware of the differences between GSM and CDMA, etc etc. He may not be gramps yet, but if he's looking to duck the title he should stop writing about mobile.

Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me

#18
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What types of companies were you interviewing at? I've really never seen anything but ageism in the favor of younger people.

That's really strange. When I was just out of college no one took my work experience during college seriously, they all treated me like I was a clean slate even though I had about three years of part-time experience with two full-time summers. I was constantly told, when I actually got feedback, that I was too inexperienced. I was applying for entry-level positions, which these days means you need 1-2 years experienc…

I had this same experience. I am just glad someone took the chance on me, and has given me the opportunity to get experience.

Although my situation was somewhat complicated - applying for entry level project management work and having a philosophy degree.

Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me

#19
Should we start looking into techniques for keeping the mind and body young? One measure would probably be how quickly you can learn new technologies and methods for getting work done. As I get older, I'm always trying to learn something new and coming up with ideas for solving problems. The last thing I want my employer to think is that I'm only good for maintaining the existing code. Another thing is how well you can relate to younger people and work with them. You can't afford to have them thinking of you as being out of touch with the current tech.

Re: Ageism is becoming an issue for me

#20

Should we start looking into techniques for keeping the mind and body young? One measure would probably be how quickly you can learn new technologies and methods for getting work done. As I get older, I'm always trying to learn something new and coming up with ideas for solving problems. The last thing I want my employer to think is that I'm only good for maintaining the existing code. Another thing is how well you c…

This would tend to confirm the "ageism" that Weiner is talking about. If a young body and mind is a good thing, an old body and mind is not.

I guess the "Ageist" position is that yes, human bodies and brains do decay, but experience and wisdom precisely mitigate this. It seems a little absurd.

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