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A new approach to China

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Re: A new approach to China

#371

Post by codexon »

Maktab wrote: post #361
codexon wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did read the article to the end, and I find no fault with what I said. They haven't decided to pull out completely from China yet. They simply said they might , and their main focus was to stop censoring as much as they can "within the law" . I am really surprised that you have been voted so highly as though you and many other readers here mistakenly interpreted this as an absolute sign that Google is going to with…

Your interpretation is incorrect. Google have quite clearly stated that they are no longer willing to accept any censorship of their search results on Google.cn and that they are prepared to shut down their operations in China if it's not possible to legally run Google.cn without filters. As it seems unlikely that the Chinese government will permit Google to operate such an unfiltered search engine, Google is effecti…

My interpretation is entirely correct. As of now, Google has not yet voluntarily withdrawn google.cn from the internet.

Just because you think it is sure sign that Google will withdraw does not mean that they will. So far this is nothing more than an empty threat.

Re: A new approach to China

#372

Post by jhancock »

poutine wrote: post #349

Google probably has been wanting out of China for some time. Like many companies it had felt pressure to be in the 'largest market of the world'. The problem is that it really isn't equipped to compete with the likes of Baidu even if the playing field was level, which it isn't. As a poster upthread noted the Chinese Internet is entertainment dominated and not information/search dominated like in the USA. Just look at…

I take Google's statement at their word. If its no longer feasible to compete in China, they know and will make the best decision for themselves.

As to corruption in China, it certainly exists. If you come from the U.S. and have never been privy to the payoffs that do occur in the U.S., seeing it so much more open in China can be shocking. U.S. companies may not be legally allowed to make payoffs, but they certainly do. Its also illegal in China. If Google China has never paid kickbacks, they would be the first company of their size in China I have known to not do so.

One thing I've noticed in Shanghai is that businesses in competitive markets are increasingly not giving kickbacks as its simply not profitable to compete in some markets this way anymore. Additionally, there are many (not saying its the majority) Chinese business men and women that take great pride in running a clean business. For every Chinese dissident whose email the gov wants to snoop on, there exist many hard working people "doing the right thing". I've witnessed my Chinese wife run businesses and she would never payoff a business partner or gov official. She would fire any staff member she suspected of doing so.

Yes, its complex and sometimes risky to do business in China, but for the most part the net change is positive. This net positive change may not stay that way, but the only reasonable hope is that it will.

Re: A new approach to China

#373

Post by jhancock »

rms wrote: post #199
damngfw wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hackers ! if you are the true hacker, you should unite and destroy the GFW ! GFW force the 1.6 billion Chinese people to stay outside the gate of information society , GFW is not only the enemy of the Chinese people but also the enemy of all mankind !

I don't think there is anything I could do to make a difference. I guess I can give a few people a free US VPN. Email me if you want access. Google could bring down the GFW by massively disseminating free VPN access to Chinese people. However, doing so could get Larry and/or Sergey assassinated.

The IPs would get blocked. If you had many IPs, chances are they would be from a small group of ranges and the entire ranges would get blocked.

For years the way I worked around the firewall from Shanghai was to run SOCKS proxy through an SSH tunnel to my U.S. server. This works because its not advertised as such and China does not want to block all SSH/SSL traffic.

China is not trying to block everyone. If you're well educated, tech-savvy, and have a credit card to rent a server outside China, you can get around the firewall. Its that simple. If you read Chinese, as most do in China, there are many avenues of (sometimes transient) data sources which carry just about everything you could imagine. The information is out there, you just have to work a little harder to find it. China, just like various interests that control U.S. media is going after the broad strokes. In China they use the GFW, in the U.S., advertisers simply tell the top 4 media companies to not talk about certain things or else their ad money will dry up. The results as to what the general populous know are similar in my opinion.

Re: A new approach to China

#374

Post by joecode »

boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

In the long run, this is actually a very good and profitable business decision by Google. If the Chinese government is allowed to continue their human rights abuses, it will have major economic ramifications for everyone as China continues to grow in power.

"If you dance with the devil, you have to pay the piper."

Re: A new approach to China

#375

Post by forkandwait »

cturner wrote: post #278
forkandwait wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the definition of neoliberal, non-market structures are considered bad. But you don't know that, or you wouldn't have downvoted me, at least not the first time. Why you might have downvoted me is that you think a shift away from more socialist structures toward more market structures is a good thing, or (less likely) that we are not in a neoliberal era. In either case, to downvote an opinion because you think it i…

By the definition of neoliberal... People don't run around saying "Oh I'm a neoliberal" - it's a word certain groups use to hit others over the head with. Sure enough.. that's what you move in to. It isn't constructive, expect downvotes.

I disagree that neoliberal is a word "to hit others over the head with", any more than "socialist" or "christian" or "pro-life" or "pro-choice". It is a word that describes an ideology; most neoliberals I know would be quite proud of it. I think that most readers of HN lean toward the libertarian side, and are thus sensitive to the critical connotations of neoliberal, but if the shoe fits...

Additionally, just a person might have an ideology even though he or she doesn't announce it explicitly. I reserve the right to describe people in ways they would not describe themselves.

So, I think the downvoting of me this time is flawed.

Re: A new approach to China

#376

Post by ThinkWriteMute »

codexon wrote: post #170
itistoday wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am so proud of Google right now. I am too, but I think we should remember that China's citizens were and still are being censored, killed, and tortured on a daily basis. Google was fine doing business with them and even assisting in their censorship. Only until Google found itself on the receiving end of China's baton did it finally decide to change their relationship. They deserve kudos and a pat on the back for…

I agree with all of what you've said. The skeptic in me thinks that Google is using this attack as an excuse to offset the PR disaster when Schmidt said the if you have something to hide maybe you shouldn't be doing it speech.

Except that's not what he said, so...

Re: A new approach to China

#378

Post by dubcomesaveme »

djcapelis wrote: post #113
siculars wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so proud of Google right now. It's hard to contain. It is high time somoene stood up to China and let them know enough is enough. I sincerely hope other corporations follow suit. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am sure there is more to the story than is being let on now. I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. Good for Google calling them on it and making a bro…

> I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. I'm not sure these types of interactions can still be described as corporate espionage. The fact that one of these parties is a sovereign nation creates wrinkle to this whole thing. (From what I understand China doesn't directly link themselves too closely with this but no one really thinks this isn't covert stuff being…

Governments are basically corporations with varying degrees of public ownership that have monopolies on societal goods. I would consider this corporate espionage.

The US also engages in corporate espionage through the NSA in the interest of its defense contractors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#ECHELO... (last paragraph)

Re: A new approach to China

#379

Post by mikeliu »

angelbob wrote: post #72
credo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope this increases the pressure on other search providers to do the right thing. It will be interesting to see how the Chinese govt responds

And interesting to see how Bing responds...

I think this is the best thing that ever happened to Bing, not Baidu. Google users in China will not switch to Baidu, they will switch to Bing; they use google because they feel it has more unbiased results coming from a non-govt backed entity. To a chinese google user, Baidu is an ad search engine and a govt lapdog. I wouldn't be surprised if google's market share got snapped up by Bing if they do leave.

Re: A new approach to China

#380

Post by vorg »

adrianwaj wrote: post #324
vorg wrote: post #243

Could someone post the text of this blog entry here into Hacker News Comments (if doing so isn't a copyright violation)? I live in China, therefore can't read the blog post (though have deduced much of its content from reading these comments!) Before the Olympics, the Firewall would periodically block blogspot, but it was easy to get around it using proxies. However, post-Olympics, in May 2009, all of blogspot was bl…

Would an email list that emails out a new proxy web address once one gets blocked to its subscribers work? -- there is some open source code that can be setup to run as a proxy app -- there's a main site that pings it to see when it goes down, or an email address that can be mailed if it goes down. -- once blocked, a new email goes out to users with the next proxy server web address that has already been setup and re…

It used to be in China you could get to blogspot easily through proxies. If a proxy server was blocked, you could then find another unblocked one easily enough. But since the Olympics, a new method of blocking blogspot seems to be in place. Even when the proxy is available, as soon as the blogspot content starts streaming, it's cut off. The post-Olympic firewall seems to be sensitive to the content when it's blogspot blogs.
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