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I found my father living on the street

bbc.co.uk

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Re: I found my father living on the street

#61

Post by SpaghettiCat »

reverend_gonzo wrote: post #50
SpaghettiCat wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What gives you the authority to institutionalize him? A government has the duty to provide for the welfare of their people. It's every government's goal to make their people healthier. > How do you force a person to take their medication? In a psychiatric institution you could for example inject the medicine into them. > Why should you do it for this particular person but not that particular person? If a person's m…

> If a person's mind is gone so haywire that they're destroying their own body, that they don't have adequate control of their mind (as is the case with schizophrenics), that they don't eat or even respond to human communication, and they have been diagnosed with a mental disorder then you should institutionalize them until their mind regains control. This is a very fine line. What if someone refuses to eat food, or…

The difference is he has a genuine medical problem: a mental disorder, i.e. it's in the DSM.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#62

Post by chris_wot »

SpaghettiCat wrote: post #41
bsder wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What kind of society lets a mentally ill man roam the streets, deteriorating, instead of institutionalising him and helping him recover? What gives you the authority to institutionalize him? This isn't a snide question. It's a very difficult question that leads to a whole raft of difficult questions. How do you force a person to take their medication? Why should you do it for this particular person but not that par…

> What gives you the authority to institutionalize him? A government has the duty to provide for the welfare of their people. It's every government's goal to make their people healthier. > How do you force a person to take their medication? In a psychiatric institution you could for example inject the medicine into them. > Why should you do it for this particular person but not that particular person? If a person's m…

I once had a very bad episode where I didn't take my medication as I ran out. It's an anti-depressant, not an anti-psychotic or anything like that as I just have depression.

I felt restless that night, and I'd just been made redundant, so I drove my car to an all-night diner. For whatever reason, I somehow managed to go through a red light and a cop pulled me over and issued me with a $500 ticket.

I basically felt destroyed inside. I'd just lost my job, I was hungry, and I felt I'd just let down my family - and I was suffering from withdrawal from the anti-depressants. I freaked out, left my car and wandered the streets. I honestly can't recall much, but I do know it started raining on me and I do know I was thinking about death. The police came and put me in an ambulance. I arrived in the ED, and was placed in a mental health ward.

It was the worst experience of my life. I have never been treated so badly, or had my rights and dignity stripped away so thoroughly and systematically. They didn't chart my medication properly, they put me in a freezing room overnight with not enough bedsheets, the building leaked everywhere (even the light sockets had water going through it), there were people having psychotic episodes or hearing voices, it was terrible food and no staff gave me any counselling or even asked how I was. What's worse was that I recovered very, very quickly so I was fully cognizant of what was happening. When I asked for my correct medication, I was told I was being unreasonable and "You don't get anywhere here by being demanding you know!" was the answer given to me by the nurse on duty (I put in a complaint and then admitted they had made a major mistake in charting my medication).

So THAT'S why we don't institutionalise people. I don't care what facility it is, if the person isn't harming themselves, that's the wrong place for them. I can assure you, if I ever have thoughts of suicide, I will never admit it to the police or any health worker in case they put me back in that place. One night in that place was more than enough. I will either commit the act (God, I hope it never gets that bad!) or I'll suffer in silence.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#63

Post by marrs »

corin_ wrote: post #52
DominikR wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can very objectively prove that a person is missing a limb but often you cannot prove that a person is mentally ill. Often persons will be categorized as mentally ill just because they deviate in their beliefs or lifestyle from the mainstream culture. And yes, mentally ill persons HAVE a free will, don't tell me they don't as this would be equal to declaring that they are not human beings but just a lump of meat.…

To add to your answer: mental illness isn't all or nothing, it's not either you're a normal person with free will vs. you're crazy and everything you say is crazy. People with depression, bipolar, many other mental illnesses could be completely normal when you meet them but still classified as having a mental illness. It's possible to keep a normal life, a normal job, yet be aware that you are, in some way, "mentally…

Add people who don't sleep enough, are pregnant, are facing redundancy, are approaching middle age, have an addiction, etc, ad infinitum.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#64

Post by dredmorbius »

DanBC wrote: post #48
SpaghettiCat wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What gives you the authority to institutionalize him? A government has the duty to provide for the welfare of their people. It's every government's goal to make their people healthier. > How do you force a person to take their medication? In a psychiatric institution you could for example inject the medicine into them. > Why should you do it for this particular person but not that particular person? If a person's m…

What you're asking for is that people who have the ability to chose (where to live; what medical treatment to have) are denied that choice. > In a psychiatric institution you could for example inject the medicine into them. Schizophrenia is a lifelong illness. Do you keep someone imprisoned for the rest of their life so that you can forcibly medicate them against their will?

There are, to change the domain somewhat, other lifelong illnesses, which arent mental disorders. TDR-TB -- totally drug resistant tuberculosis -- is one of these. Worse, unlike schizophrenia, it's contagious.

And the only viable public health responses are either a total quarantine of infected populations, or killing them.

If you reject the latter, and i hope that you do, you're left with a situation not much different from that posed by schizophrenia: the prospect of institutionalisation, but under terms and conditions in which the afflicted will prefer and seek out that option. Or at the very least not resist it.

I'll also note that lifelong imprisonment is not necessarily the only option, you're appealing to the extreme here. Though sometimes, yes, that _is_ what society must do.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#65

Post by chris_wot »

stan_rogers wrote: post #22
girvo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * alcohol (which is a depressant)* I thought a depressant in the context of drugs means "central nervous system depressant", not "causes depression"?

... and alcohol is a CNS depressant. A common "can't afford to smell of booze right now" substitute (at least in the old days; it's been a very long time between drinks for me) was Seconal. It ain't the same, but it takes the edge off in the right way.

Good on you, it must be tough to give up. You have my respect.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#66

Post by ashworth »

SpaghettiCat wrote: post #53
chrisseaton wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people have rights . They have a right to not live in an institution if they don't want to. You want to disregard that right, because you think you know better for them than they do. Many of these people aren't dangerous and don't have infectious diseases, so there's no public health need to lock them up as you're suggesting.

These people don't have control over their mental faculties; they aren't competent enough to make a choice for what is best for them in the same way that minors aren't allowed to go truant or to consent to sex with an adult. If you are all there in the head, by all means live on the streets, stay filthy, don't eat and ignore people, but this man has a brain disease that makes him lose control of his mind. If he was f…

But who decides who has control over their mental faculties? Who decides who is competent? The state? The family? The physician?

Can you imagine scenarios where the state, or the family, or the physician are incompetent, selfish, or malicious in determining the competence of a person? I believe there are MANY such scenarios.

This isn't a hypothetical for me... like the author of the article we're discussing, I've had close friends suffer from schizophrenia and depression, and seen one of them involuntarily institutionalized. I wish it was so clear cut SpaghettiCat, but I think the majority of mental health cases are not so black and white as the one in the article.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#67

Post by chris_wot »

vidarh wrote: post #46
SpaghettiCat wrote: post #6

What kind of society lets a mentally ill man roam the streets, deteriorating, instead of institutionalising him and helping him recover?

Many other good answers, but here's an anecdote: In Oslo, near the university, there used by a "cave dweller". A by all accounts bright student who at 25 decided to stop washing himself. He was soon thrown out of his student accommodation because of the smell. He then decided to take up residence under a tarp in a makeshift "cave" in a hillside next to the university where he stayed for the following two and half dec…

It is very hard for a mentally ill person to defend themselves. If they are in a mental institution, they can complain but even legitimate complaints get treated like a mentally ill person being difficult or delusional.

That's sort of understandable - if you are around people all day who hear Satan, or have obsessive compulsions, complaining that you don't have enough bedclothes or the food is bad is just seen as part of your condition. If you get given the wrong medication, it's assumed you are wrong and you'll be ignored. If you get mad about being ignored, you can't just walk out as they wont let you. In all likelihood you'll be tranquillised to keep you quiet.

How do I know this? Everything except the sedation happened to me!

Re: I found my father living on the street

#68

Post by DominikR »

mcphage wrote: post #60
DominikR wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A government has the duty to provide for the welfare of their people. You state this as if it is an universal principle. It is not. Why don't you and everybody else provide for your own welfare? > In a psychiatric institution you could for example inject the medicine into them. Some countries deem persons with certain sexual preferences as mentally ill. (homosexuals) How would you feel about imprisoning them in a p…

I was with you 100% until you referred to taxes as "stealing".

I overreacted here, I don't believe that taxing equals stealing.

It's just how quickly people that have this wish for the nanny state will claim they have a right to your resources for their very well thought out plans.

Plans like imprisoning every mentally ill person and injecting them with some compound against their will.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#69

Post by leroy_masochist »

SpaghettiCat wrote: post #61
reverend_gonzo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person's mind is gone so haywire that they're destroying their own body, that they don't have adequate control of their mind (as is the case with schizophrenics), that they don't eat or even respond to human communication, and they have been diagnosed with a mental disorder then you should institutionalize them until their mind regains control. This is a very fine line. What if someone refuses to eat food, or…

The difference is he has a genuine medical problem: a mental disorder , i.e. it's in the DSM.

Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the DSM until the mid-1970s.

The understanding of relatively highly-occurring afflictions such as PTS and schizophrenia is evolving to this day and it's a near-certainty that the DSM will be a different document 10 years from now.

I don't think we should be so cavalier about taking freedom away from people whose main transgression against the rest of society is making us feel uncomfortable when we look at them.

Re: I found my father living on the street

#70

Post by chris_wot »

SpaghettiCat wrote: post #61
reverend_gonzo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person's mind is gone so haywire that they're destroying their own body, that they don't have adequate control of their mind (as is the case with schizophrenics), that they don't eat or even respond to human communication, and they have been diagnosed with a mental disorder then you should institutionalize them until their mind regains control. This is a very fine line. What if someone refuses to eat food, or…

The difference is he has a genuine medical problem: a mental disorder , i.e. it's in the DSM.

The DSM? Don't make me laugh. The DSM has plenty of things in it that you can't say would require someone to be institutionalised. I'll bet there is something I could find in the DSM that you would fit into. I'm not about to commit you though.
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