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Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

independent.co.uk

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Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#51

Post by alexqgb »

stephengillie wrote: post #39
rwmj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP's point is that decriminalization leaves the market, the money and the tax revenue with the criminals. As a taxpayer, I want a fair proportion of the money to go to the government, and only full legalization and regulation does that.

But first we have to mollify the masses that the decades of War-On-Drugs FUD is untrue. Show them that drug users are fellow humans, and easier access to the tools they use to generate happiness isn't going to cause rioting on the streets.

Exactly. One person's idea of a half-baked measure is another's idea of incremental progress. When you can demonstrate that some of what reactionaries believe is flatly wrong it gets a lot easier to chip away at the rest of the errors they've managed to enshrine in law.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#52

Post by icanhackit »

iamcurious wrote: post #26

It is a step in the right direction, but it still half-baked. Without decriminalizing production as well, they are maintaining a monopoly for those that works outside of the law. Which means a very profitable tax free market that has to recreate all of the state features like physical safety and insurance policies from scratch. Every nation that forbids something that is in demand, is gestating its own competition. T…

It is a step in the right direction, but it still half-baked.

We all want the revolution overnight but it takes careful and calculated steps to make progress. Consider Representative Barney Frank (D-MA) when accosted by a Republican Rep who claimed the States' Rights to Medical Marijuana Act was a sly step towards the process of legalizing marijuana outright. Barney's (paraphrased) answer: Yep, you got me. That is our goal.

And of course once you've legalized the selling of marijuana, you're potentially opening the doors for other substances. But they come with their own set of problems and taboos so it will take time.

Initiatives have to start somewhere and demonstrate their utility with minimal fuss. Baby steps, but in the right direction.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#53

Post by lucideer »

dbspin wrote: post #30
lucideer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd really love if this were the case, but sadly it really isn't. The affect of US tech companies coming here has largely been a small-scale version of Palo Alto-esque gentrification of a small area of Dublin (docklands) and any improvements in standard of living being limited to a small white male tech elite. Overall poverty is up (we're dealing with a very serious recent homelessness crisis) and average standards o…

Describing the Dublin tech community as 'a small white male tech elite' is bizarre. Given the still tiny number of non-white people in Ireland, and the relative number in the tech industry, outside of the teaching hospitals the tech industry is probably the most ethnically diverse in the country. There's certainly a gender disparity, but given the relative ease of getting into tech (via Springboard and similar), this…

I live in Dublin and work in the tech industry here, so I'm not importing any narratives from anywhere else. The tiny number of non-white people in Ireland is ~9% of the population, not too much lower than the UK.

There's also been a reasonable female uptake of STEM at third-level in recent years, in part due to deliberate initiatives to promote it. I get the anecdotal impression this may have translated into reducing imbalance in a few science/engineering-related fields (I could be wrong), but not really IT-related stuff seemingly.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#54

Post by avree »

hoodoof wrote: post #44

To really solve the social problems, the sale needs to be legalised. Making the sale a criminal offence puts money into the hands of organized crime, drives up the prices, forces addicts to steal to buy their drugs and leads drug users to take "worse" drugs like methamphetamine because "better" drugs aren't easily available. Drugs need to be made legally to ensure quality, to remove harmful impurities, to ensure the…

Why do you think meth is worse than heroin?

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#55

Post by hoodoof »

avree wrote: post #54
hoodoof wrote: post #44

To really solve the social problems, the sale needs to be legalised. Making the sale a criminal offence puts money into the hands of organized crime, drives up the prices, forces addicts to steal to buy their drugs and leads drug users to take "worse" drugs like methamphetamine because "better" drugs aren't easily available. Drugs need to be made legally to ensure quality, to remove harmful impurities, to ensure the…

Why do you think meth is worse than heroin?

Meth junkies go on violent psychotic rampages killing and injuring other people and have no other thought in their brains except to get more meth. When I read in the newspaper about someone murdering their family I expect, and often find either a statement or suggestion that the perpetrator was using meth.

Heroin junkies go to sleep and are making a poor health choice but it is possible with clean heroin to lead a functional life including work and family.

Drugs that harm the user are "better" (as such) whereas drugs that result in harm to others are "worse".

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#56

Post by ryanlol »

avree wrote: post #54
hoodoof wrote: post #44

To really solve the social problems, the sale needs to be legalised. Making the sale a criminal offence puts money into the hands of organized crime, drives up the prices, forces addicts to steal to buy their drugs and leads drug users to take "worse" drugs like methamphetamine because "better" drugs aren't easily available. Drugs need to be made legally to ensure quality, to remove harmful impurities, to ensure the…

Why do you think meth is worse than heroin?

Heroin related problems are rarely caused by the substance itself, rather lack thereof.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#57

Post by MichaelGG »

hoodoof wrote: post #55
avree wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think meth is worse than heroin?

Meth junkies go on violent psychotic rampages killing and injuring other people and have no other thought in their brains except to get more meth. When I read in the newspaper about someone murdering their family I expect, and often find either a statement or suggestion that the perpetrator was using meth. Heroin junkies go to sleep and are making a poor health choice but it is possible with clean heroin to lead a fu…

Apparently the FDA/DEA disagree, as methamphetamine is legal in the US and doctors can prescribe it for attention issues or obesity. Sales are somewhere above $10M a year. (This is just for methamphetamine. Other amphetamines like Adderall sell like 100x more.)

Whereas diamorphine, aka Bayer Heroin(TM)[1], is deemed to have zero medicinal qualities.

The DEA is almost certainly wrong (as usual), though if amphetamines were easily obtainable at good prices, the market for meth would likely crash.

And you're right that real opiates (to contrast with dirt mixed with fentanyl and sold as "heroin") seem to have little negative effects. Most of the damage is due to the legality and financing issues, which are entirely artificial. (Opiates are incredibly cheap to produce.)

1: Trademark stolen as part of WWI "reparations".

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#58

Post by werber »

hoodoof wrote: post #55
avree wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think meth is worse than heroin?

Meth junkies go on violent psychotic rampages killing and injuring other people and have no other thought in their brains except to get more meth. When I read in the newspaper about someone murdering their family I expect, and often find either a statement or suggestion that the perpetrator was using meth. Heroin junkies go to sleep and are making a poor health choice but it is possible with clean heroin to lead a fu…

Meth and Heroin addicts tend to be poorer and prone to criminal activity, than pharmaceutical amphetamine and opiate users. Additionally, adverse reactions, are more likely when the drug is unregulated.

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#59

Post by donohoe »

anigbrowl wrote: post #46
iamcurious wrote: post #26

It is a step in the right direction, but it still half-baked. Without decriminalizing production as well, they are maintaining a monopoly for those that works outside of the law. Which means a very profitable tax free market that has to recreate all of the state features like physical safety and insurance policies from scratch. Every nation that forbids something that is in demand, is gestating its own competition. T…

I agree with you but remember that Ireland and the UK are islands, which immediately puts them in a better position to deal with smuggling compared to countries that share long land borders. I think this is why island nations are generally a bit more conservative - it's much more practical to control imports.

That's a very broad conclusion to draw!

Re: Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use

#60

Post by oxide »

bko wrote: post #48
iamcurious wrote: post #26

It is a step in the right direction, but it still half-baked. Without decriminalizing production as well, they are maintaining a monopoly for those that works outside of the law. Which means a very profitable tax free market that has to recreate all of the state features like physical safety and insurance policies from scratch. Every nation that forbids something that is in demand, is gestating its own competition. T…

Couldn't agree more but I don't think it has to do with capitalism, but economics. Regardless of the system in place, if there is a high enough demand for a product, as there is drugs, there will be a supply. An interesting example is how drug use is actually rampant in US prisons, some of the most controlled environments in the country. No ones idea of a free market capitalism, but somehow drugs are still very acces…

the one I know for sure about involved visitation.

wives and girlfriends are asked to smuggle something in for a significant other inside of themselves. a toilet trip later it gets removed and passed off, and voila. even a small amount can curry quite a bit of favor and of course cash. because of the risk involved, the price is well marked up.

seems like the guards would have to be on the take, though, because I'm not sure how the inmate is supposed to get it from the visitation room back to his cell.

I'm sure they have something figured out, anyone who can light a cigarette with an outlet is bound to be a crafty cat.

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