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A new approach to China

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Re: A new approach to China

#301

Post by Arun2009 »

jfischer wrote: post #71

I'm all for taking the high ground, but I highly doubt this will change the Chinese government's behavior. Google doesn't have such a huge market share in China and leaving will only help local competition (e.g. Baidu) that can be more easily controlled by the government. What leverage does Google have? This is really the classic engagement vs. isolation debate. The only thing that might have any leverage would be to…

> What leverage does Google have?

Consider that Google owns about 65% of the search market worldwide (http://www.businessinsider.com/bing-who-google-worldwide-sea...). In addition, they enjoy a tremendous amount of goodwill - they are really seen as the good guys by a lot of people.

If Google wants to play tough, they have a lot to work with. At the very least, the Chinese regime would be launching a PR nuke on itself.

Re: A new approach to China

#302

Post by Locke1689 »

jacquesm wrote: post #207
andreyf wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the individual on reddit may have very well stolen your comment I did, thought of it more as a social experiment than theft, though. Apologies to boundlessdreamz, if he cares...

That's pretty low.

Actually, I think it's kind of interesting. Granted, it was impolite to crosspost the comment from boundless without asking first, but this could be an interesting thought process. I'm kind of wondering what conclusions andreyf was trying to draw.

Edit: After a little thought, I think you may be blowing this up a little bit. He did delete the comment when boundless objected and it wasn't exactly a work of art or anything.

Re: A new approach to China

#303

Post by ytinas »

omouse wrote: post #178
boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

If it's an attack done by the Chinese government, then Google's withdrawal from the country would be welcome by them. It would increase the market share of Baidu, the local Chinese-based earch engine. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to generate profits can eschew it and take a moral high ground why can't the government do it? Are the cheap goods from china so necessary tha…

I agree, but are you ready to pay what it really costs to make things?

Re: A new approach to China

#305

Post by garply »

garply wrote: post #174
rabidgnat wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop." Half of the surprise I received reading this article was my shock that the Chinese government would attack profitable companies like Google. Sure, they've always attacked foreign governments, but China's government depends on US companies spending Dollars overseas. Since consumer spending is down in USA, it only seems natural for China to start…

Google is not very big in China anyway, the Chinese gov't doesn't stand to lose much.

Why did this get downvoted? I didn't say anything incendiary and I don't think my statement was factually incorrect. The truth is, the Chinese government doesn't stand to lose much at all by blocking Google. Politics trumps business here - and even if it didn't, all blocking Google does is help promote local Chinese competitors, which is something the gov't likes to do anyway.

Re: A new approach to China

#306

Post by riobard »

netcan wrote: post #242
netcan wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure they can just block all Google services all of a sudden. What about mail. What about docs. What about turning off your Google Adwords account.

I think (judging by downvotes) that I am being misunderstood. My thinking was along these lines: Mr Small Chinese Exporter wakes up tomorrow unable to access his Google Adwords account which is how he connects to foreign importers. He's out of widgets and wants to stop advertising them. He can't even suspend the campaign and they keep charging his credit card. That's bad business. I'm not sure China would want to do…

What happens to "Mr Small Chinese Exporter" is never a concern for such a government like the Chinese one ...

Re: A new approach to China

#307

Post by andreyf »

tel wrote: post #286
jacquesm wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I give up. Someone else want to give it a shot?

Here's a good example: http://waxy.org/2009/04/all_things_digital_and_transparency_... The short of it being that identity is paramount online. Stealing content can be a copyright issue, but stepping into someone else's voice and holding someone else's creative content as your own is simply evil. With proper, comprehensive attribution there's some flex to go around, but even then it's generally something done with co…

Again, it depends on the value you attribute to a news.YC comment, and a reddit "identity". I agree with and understand the immorality of plagiarism, I'm just saying it only applies to work one puts more than a couple of minutes of effort into.

Re: A new approach to China

#308

Post by jacquesm »

Locke1689 wrote: post #302
jacquesm wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty low.

Actually, I think it's kind of interesting. Granted, it was impolite to crosspost the comment from boundless without asking first, but this could be an interesting thought process. I'm kind of wondering what conclusions andreyf was trying to draw. Edit: After a little thought, I think you may be blowing this up a little bit. He did delete the comment when boundless objected and it wasn't exactly a work of art or anyt…

9 Hours later, after parting with this gem:

> "As a matter of fact, the reason I cross-posted is that I don't think the comment in question deserved the top spot, and would frankly be ashamed if such writing/logic were ever seriously attributed to me."

It's a new low for HN from what I've seen to date.

Re: A new approach to China

#309

Post by miked »

jordyhoyt wrote: post #153
boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

My high school US history teacher said this (during the ramp-up to the Iraq war): "Posturing for war can be very good, actually going to war is NEVER good." The parallel here, in my mind, is that Google has an opportunity for accomplishing several things while "posturing" for war with the Chinese government: * Put pressure on the Chinese government to change. This is the public-facing goal of the campaign. The cause.…

...actually going to war is NEVER good."

I wonder if African-American slaves would agree. Or West Europeans, especially those in concentration camps. Or South Koreans.

Re: A new approach to China

#310

Post by bad_user »

damien wrote: post #233
omouse wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can spin this easily. Google is showing porn images in their search results or some other bullshit story. They would do that, and it would make their local search engine Baidu look very good in comparison. They could also spin it as Google not being able to stand the competition and "look! Westerns can't help us, they don't know anything about us!" They aren't ignorant of PR and they know when to apply force and…

It seems they've already started that kind of spin. For example, in the wsj article: "Chinese internet analysts said they were shocked by the Google announcement, but at the same time they understood the reasons behind its threat to back out of China. They said the cyber attacks have exposed Google's inability to protect its users' privacy..." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126335402591827235.html

> They said the cyber attacks have exposed Google's inability to protect its users' privacy

This can always backfire on them ... once groups like those at 4chan get working on Baidu :) And I'd be willing to bet that Google has a much more reliable security. Not to mention that this statement is kind of hypocritical ... since when are they concerned about privacy?

Also ... these PR spins won't work for them internationally ... since communism has a negative image, and this is one of the factors considered when extending a business to China.

So they have a more relaxed communism, allowing privately owned companies to thrive ... but look, Google announced they were hurt by the Chinese government, and apparently they weren't the only ones. Whom would you be more inclined to believe?

And Google is also good at PR :)

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