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Russia and the Curse of Geography

theatlantic.com

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Re: Russia and the Curse of Geography

#11

Post by Zigurd »

SanFranManDan wrote: post #9
Zigurd wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is no need of roses. But preferable to being in the Russian sphere of influence.

To play devil's (or should I say Putin's :P ) advocate for a second, there are non-quantifiable properties of life beyond money. Russians treat their culture as sacred and would give (and have given) up a great deal to preserve it. Its still kind of hard to wrap my mind around it. The communist fought tooth and nail to try to rid the different soviet states of it, but it persevered. There is an unquantifiable propert…

Are you saying Ukrainians are Russian? Even the ones who are tend to proclaim this position from the comfort of being outside of Russia.

And I meant to write "no bed of roses."

Re: Russia and the Curse of Geography

#12

Post by AlexandrP »

ajuc wrote: post #3

Article presents Russian POV. For example it states that Kievan Rus was Russian predecesor state, "in what is now Ukraine". It's like saying Roman Empire was a French predecessor state in what is now Italy. Not the whole story. Not that it matters much, but it's one of the constantly repeated points of Russian propaganda - that Ukraine is a temporary state with no history. And considering the defense as explanation f…

> Article presents Russian POV.

> For example it states that Kievan Rus was Russian predecesor state, "in what is now Ukraine".

> It's like saying Roman Empire was a French predecessor state in what is now Italy. Not the whole story.

It is a weak comparison. The fact that the Russian state has its roots in Kievan Rus, with the center in Kiev, is not disputed by any Russian historiography (I'm russian historian), neither Ukrainian nor Western. It is the same for Ukraine and Belarus - we all believe that our common roots lie in the Kievan Rus. Therefore, we call each other sister nations.

> Not that it matters much, but it's one of the constantly repeated points of Russian propaganda - that Ukraine is a temporary state with no history.

It is not true. Here are _TON_ of BS from state mass media. But no one, in their right mind, would talk like that.

Re: Russia and the Curse of Geography

#13

Post by ajuc »

usaphp wrote: post #4
ajuc wrote: post #3

Article presents Russian POV. For example it states that Kievan Rus was Russian predecesor state, "in what is now Ukraine". It's like saying Roman Empire was a French predecessor state in what is now Italy. Not the whole story. Not that it matters much, but it's one of the constantly repeated points of Russian propaganda - that Ukraine is a temporary state with no history. And considering the defense as explanation f…

> and Ukrainians started revolutions to win "freedom and prosperity" through eventual accession to EU. Do you really believe that accession to EU brings "freedom and prosperity" to its counties? Looking at Greece and some other EU countries it seems quite the opposite

I can only really see how it worked for m country (Poland). And basing on that evidence - yes it does. The disadvantages are minor compared to the advantages.

Re: Russia and the Curse of Geography

#14

Post by ajuc »

zilean wrote: post #10
ajuc wrote: post #3

Article presents Russian POV. For example it states that Kievan Rus was Russian predecesor state, "in what is now Ukraine". It's like saying Roman Empire was a French predecessor state in what is now Italy. Not the whole story. Not that it matters much, but it's one of the constantly repeated points of Russian propaganda - that Ukraine is a temporary state with no history. And considering the defense as explanation f…

> Ukraine is a temporary state with no history Not to follow along with propaganda, but how much of an independent history Ukraine have in these new borders in last 1000 years? Specifically around Crimea and so called People's Republics.

Around 300 years. More than USA :)

Re: Russia and the Curse of Geography

#15

Post by AlexandrP »

ajuc wrote: post #14
zilean wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ukraine is a temporary state with no history Not to follow along with propaganda, but how much of an independent history Ukraine have in these new borders in last 1000 years? Specifically around Crimea and so called People's Republics.

Around 300 years. More than USA :)

Around 25 years. Exactly after USSR ruined.

Re: Russia and the Curse of Geography

#16

Post by cema »

AlexandrP wrote: post #12
ajuc wrote: post #3

Article presents Russian POV. For example it states that Kievan Rus was Russian predecesor state, "in what is now Ukraine". It's like saying Roman Empire was a French predecessor state in what is now Italy. Not the whole story. Not that it matters much, but it's one of the constantly repeated points of Russian propaganda - that Ukraine is a temporary state with no history. And considering the defense as explanation f…

> Article presents Russian POV. > For example it states that Kievan Rus was Russian predecesor state, "in what is now Ukraine". > It's like saying Roman Empire was a French predecessor state in what is now Italy. Not the whole story. It is a weak comparison. The fact that the Russian state has its roots in Kievan Rus, with the center in Kiev, is not disputed by any Russian historiography (I'm russian historian), neit…

From my personal experience, there are too many people in Russia who are, according to your last statement, not quite in their right mind...

Re: Russia and the Curse of Geography

#17

Post by cema »

SanFranManDan wrote: post #9
Zigurd wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is no need of roses. But preferable to being in the Russian sphere of influence.

To play devil's (or should I say Putin's :P ) advocate for a second, there are non-quantifiable properties of life beyond money. Russians treat their culture as sacred and would give (and have given) up a great deal to preserve it. Its still kind of hard to wrap my mind around it. The communist fought tooth and nail to try to rid the different soviet states of it, but it persevered. There is an unquantifiable propert…

  Russians treat their culture as sacred
I cannot even begin to understand what it means. Could you clarify please?
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