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How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

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Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#21

Post by krasin »

zyxley wrote: post #10
krasin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'd have less problem with dense housing (especially since I don't actually care about the stereotypical "yard and a white picket fence") if said housing started including -90dB or better soundproofing. Yep. Instead of having a thousand of single-family houses, I would rather have a beautiful 30+ stories castle surrounded by a park of ~1 km radius. Cars are expected to live underground and reach the surface outside…

> a beautiful 30+ stories castle surrounded by a park of ~1 km radius The problem with this is that you're basically getting the worst of both worlds. You lose many of the real benefits of dense development because there's no space for jobs and shopping, and you lose the benefits of privately kept land like customized yards and broken-up sightlines and so on. The "giant building separated from everything else by a gi…

Some basic services and shopping are included into the first few floors. For something more fancy, it's ok to drive.

As for being disconnected, it's usually quite opposite, if your friends live in the same building: you're 5-10 minutes away from them.

Again, speaking from the personal experience, not dreams. Map: https://goo.gl/maps/g7bEBsoqwkL2

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#22

Post by jessedhillon »

topspin wrote: post #14
muddyrivers wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. I don't think physical distance and density are important factors. Culture might be. People are more friendly in the midwest, and they are more open to talk about family matters. Family matters are in essence intimate, and the topics draw the people in the conversation together. In the big cities, these topics are regarded as "more" private (they are indeed private). It is a social norm to not share them unles…

Culture? Hmm. Maybe. These highly ordered, dense and costly neighborhoods are hostile. Anxiety is high among residence. Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty, some space and the need to collaborate to keep the road open and people connect naturally. The 'urban planners' and their cheerleaders have it wrong. They've decided that downsizing everyone and making them live in each others laps will end with K…

I think you're trying to pound a square peg into a round hole here. You're onto something in that rural people do tend to be more open and approachable -- having grown up in a rural community I'm in agreement with you on that. As to the cause -- in my experience, rural living is a retreat from what draws people to city life.

City living (this is all just my experience) is about chasing opportunity and throwing yourself intensely into the pursuit of success. Out in the country, I see people who have earned enough to buy a house with some land, and are ready to drop into a lower gear. They're willing to forego the opportunity and experience in order to achieve some stability and a slower pace of life.

So it's no wonder that, when you deliberately remove major sources of tension from people's lives, they are more easy going.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#23

Post by TulliusCicero »

muddyrivers wrote: post #8
topspin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's 100% out of phase with my experience. I just ended 21 years in the "Front Range" area; Boulder, Fort Collins CO. Bike trails and bikers abound, anti-car municipal governments impeding road development, everyone living on anti-sprawl 0.2 acre plats. However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural i…

Agree. I don't think physical distance and density are important factors. Culture might be. People are more friendly in the midwest, and they are more open to talk about family matters. Family matters are in essence intimate, and the topics draw the people in the conversation together. In the big cities, these topics are regarded as "more" private (they are indeed private). It is a social norm to not share them unles…

I think this is a selection bias. In a big city, you see everyone. In a rural area, people who are more anti-social are more likely to become outright recluses, they're totally invisible to the rest of society. Thus, you only see the more pro-social people in a rural area.

For example, we think of people in rural areas as being those who love the outdoors, they get out a lot into nature, exercise a lot, more than city slickers, right? Except no, they're actually less healthy than urban residents. Sure, there are some there who really are going out into nature constantly and are in fantastic shape, but what you don't see are the people who just sit at home all the time watching TV and smoking, because there just ain't that much to do - http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023047935045764344...

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#24

Post by meric »

krasin wrote: post #6
JoshTriplett wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minimum parking requirements On the flipside, if you have friends who aren't right next door (or perhaps who once were and you don't want to write them off because they moved), it helps to have the ability to drive to their place. I'm not arguing for "car first", but I don't think "pedestrian first" makes sense either. Most of my friends are scattered around a 20-minute radius. (And quite frankly, you can choose yo…

>I'd have less problem with dense housing (especially since I don't actually care about the stereotypical "yard and a white picket fence") if said housing started including -90dB or better soundproofing. Yep. Instead of having a thousand of single-family houses, I would rather have a beautiful 30+ stories castle surrounded by a park of ~1 km radius. Cars are expected to live underground and reach the surface outside…

Like this? http://owner.estate/realestate/view/70967 Or this? http://owner.estate/realestate/view/101203

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#25

Post by rcurry »

topspin wrote: post #4
TulliusCicero wrote: post #2

Note that it's not just individual choices that have led to this. Minimum parking requirements, anti-density zoning laws, and other car-first regulations have forcibly shaped our communities to be hostile to walking, biking, and transit. A huge loss in spontaneous community interaction is the inevitable result.

Well that's 100% out of phase with my experience. I just ended 21 years in the "Front Range" area; Boulder, Fort Collins CO. Bike trails and bikers abound, anti-car municipal governments impeding road development, everyone living on anti-sprawl 0.2 acre plats. However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural i…

My experience has been the same as yours - I spent years living in NYC and years living in rural Wisconsin. The difference, in terms of social contact, is remarkable. It used to kill me when I'd roll up to a complete stranger's farm to ask for permission to hunt out on their property and end up getting dragged into the house to have dinner with their family, ha ha.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#26

Post by krasin »

meric wrote: post #24
krasin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'd have less problem with dense housing (especially since I don't actually care about the stereotypical "yard and a white picket fence") if said housing started including -90dB or better soundproofing. Yep. Instead of having a thousand of single-family houses, I would rather have a beautiful 30+ stories castle surrounded by a park of ~1 km radius. Cars are expected to live underground and reach the surface outside…

Like this? http://owner.estate/realestate/view/70967 Or this? http://owner.estate/realestate/view/101203

My proposal already includes a photo; I am not sure how are the human apiaries with no living outdoor space related to it.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#27

Post by ido »

krasin wrote: post #21
zyxley wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a beautiful 30+ stories castle surrounded by a park of ~1 km radius The problem with this is that you're basically getting the worst of both worlds. You lose many of the real benefits of dense development because there's no space for jobs and shopping, and you lose the benefits of privately kept land like customized yards and broken-up sightlines and so on. The "giant building separated from everything else by a gi…

Some basic services and shopping are included into the first few floors. For something more fancy, it's ok to drive. As for being disconnected, it's usually quite opposite, if your friends live in the same building: you're 5-10 minutes away from them. Again, speaking from the personal experience, not dreams. Map: https://goo.gl/maps/g7bEBsoqwkL2

Yes, as a college student it is possible all your friends (or a lot of them) will live in that one huge building. But as time passes people move around (even within the same city) for jobs, family, and lots of other reasons & suddenly all your friends don't all live in the same huge building.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#28

Post by krasin »

ido wrote: post #27
krasin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some basic services and shopping are included into the first few floors. For something more fancy, it's ok to drive. As for being disconnected, it's usually quite opposite, if your friends live in the same building: you're 5-10 minutes away from them. Again, speaking from the personal experience, not dreams. Map: https://goo.gl/maps/g7bEBsoqwkL2

Yes, as a college student it is possible all your friends (or a lot of them) will live in that one huge building. But as time passes people move around (even within the same city) for jobs, family, and lots of other reasons & suddenly all your friends don't all live in the same huge building.

In this case, these friends are not farther than in usual case of a low-density suburban. You will have to drive, but not longer than if you lived in a single family house, as the building + park in the proposal above takes about the same space as 1000 single-family houses. So, it makes the friends more accessible, if they are in the same neighborhood, and not less accessible otherwise.

Also, living in the same building actually helps to find new friends, especially if there's enough shared space indoors/outdoors, such as cafes, gyms, hacker spaces, etc.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#29

Post by JoshTriplett »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #17
JoshTriplett wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minimum parking requirements On the flipside, if you have friends who aren't right next door (or perhaps who once were and you don't want to write them off because they moved), it helps to have the ability to drive to their place. I'm not arguing for "car first", but I don't think "pedestrian first" makes sense either. Most of my friends are scattered around a 20-minute radius. (And quite frankly, you can choose yo…

> On the flipside, if you have friends who aren't right next door (or perhaps who once were and you don't want to write them off because they moved), it helps to have the ability to drive to their place. I'm not arguing for "car first", but I don't think "pedestrian first" makes sense either. Most of my friends are scattered around a 20-minute radius. A good transportation policy takes all major modes seriously. If y…

> Nobody wants to completely get rid of cars,

I've seen far too many people argue viciously for exactly that.

> transportation nerds like myself just want the different modes to be on an even playing field, rather than cars being always hyper-dominant like they usually have been in the US.

Agreed.

Re: How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

#30

Post by kenesom1 »

pasbesoin wrote: post #3

Counterpoint: If you've ever really been burned by having a crappy neighbor -- or a string of them -- you may be inclined to get as far away as possible. I'm sensitive to noise, and I ended up not with average neighbors but with extremely noisy ones, on multiple occasions. (On one occasion, inescapable even when I was across the street and down two houses.) I'd like a greater sense of community, but I never want to g…

Sadly the housing situation in most metropolitan areas is an assault on all the senses. Housing right next to highways, no sound insulation between units, damp buildings infested with mold, inadequate ventilation, overflowing trash bins.

A lot of it is down to the short-term objectives of most property development projects, management companies who are unwilling to properly maintain buildings, and shoddy building standards in the US - flimsy materials, stick-built buildings instead of concrete, etc. The housing stock is in terrible shape and current policy encourages the development of disposable buildings that are barely livable.

Poor noise control in building designs results in:

Everyone's Upstairs Neighbors - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IRB0sxw-YU

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