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A new approach to China

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Re: A new approach to China

#91

Post by netcan »

jfischer wrote: post #71

I'm all for taking the high ground, but I highly doubt this will change the Chinese government's behavior. Google doesn't have such a huge market share in China and leaving will only help local competition (e.g. Baidu) that can be more easily controlled by the government. What leverage does Google have? This is really the classic engagement vs. isolation debate. The only thing that might have any leverage would be to…

Depending how this unfolds, I would expect a shallow but broad effect on Chinese business. Imagine that all Google properties get banned:

Interoperability with foreign businesses becomes a minor issue. Small business-to-small-business gets a little bit of friction (eg, cannot read your spreadsheet). Some classes of (especially outsourcing) Chinese companies cannot compete. They cannot provide ppc or seo services. Chinese web designers cannot add some Google maps app to a site they are developing for a Canadian client. A Chinese can't reach something on Google code. Annoyances, friction, slight inefficiencies. Being a little annoying (can you use a Zoho spreadsheet instead of Google please) repeatedly can you you client if you are an outsourcing company.

Also, Google provides a lot of non critical, but useful stuff. In many cases, Google is best and the competition can be either close or far. Adwords, Analytics, Docs, Search, Mail. Google does a lot of stuff. In some cases, I would be measurably less productive if I had to use some other product.

They can't just cut off Google with no impact.

Re: A new approach to China

#92

Post by netcan »

gridspy wrote: post #77
netcan wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, when you think about the concession they had to make, it wasn't all that big: Exclude from Google results any sites that cannot be viewed from China. That is arguably the right thing to do from a usability, if not from a political, perspective.

There is a lot of information about search results in the title, summary and cached versions alone. If the results are "sensitive" to the government, that content is highly likely to contradict the sanitised history that is being handed down.

True. I don't doubt this at all.

But.. imagine that the reason you couldn't reach these sites was not political (eg, pay wall). Wouldn't you want your search engine to give you ten links that work.

Re: A new approach to China

#93

Post by nfnaaron »

boundlessdreamz wrote: post #32
btilly wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you say is true. Yet is this move in any way inconsistent with how Google has generally been running its business? To me that is the most remarkable fact in the whole affair.

They were willing to censor results. No more. I would say that is a big change in the way they are willing to run the business. Something about this affair must have stung Google. Either morally (going after human rights activists) or in business (increased risks of attacks and infiltration)

"Something about this affair must have stung Google."

Maybe China had promised Google clean networks in exchange for censorship?

Re: A new approach to China

#94

Post by dskhatri »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #56
boundlessdreamz wrote: post #6

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to gene…

I hate to be cynical but isn't Google's share in China only equivalent to a pawn sacrifice? If you consider the brand++; in other markets maybe even a gain.

".. in other markets maybe even a gain"

Google may lose out in other markets as well. Authoritarian governments will become weary of Google even more now.

Re: A new approach to China

#95

Post by kvs »

ashu wrote: post #54
maxklein wrote: post #4

It's easy to shut down the site when you are losing the search game to local competition. In any case, even though I find freedom of speech to be necessary and encouraged, I do not think that Google is right to imply in this blog post that the Chinese government is behind the attacks.

Yours is a ridiculously cynical argument. 17% of China is far larger than 100% of Germany or France.

I am talking about 19% of Chinese who have Internet access (from a total of 200 million people) and you're talking about 17% of population. Here is some actual numbers/data. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/23/comscore-internet-popul...

Re: A new approach to China

#96

Post by [deleted] »

pavs wrote: post #28
code_devil wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well,the decision could also have been made along with the fact that they don't have a large user base. I am guessing "Baidu" is still pretty popular there. I wonder if they would have done the same if they had a 60% penetration in the Chinese market. EDIT: Why am I being downmodded ? I thought we are supposed to have open discussions here. (I did find the actual google mkt share in the TC blog later, but I was prese…

Even if they have 5% market pulling out of china is huge. They currently have ~17% market share in China. No profit-making company in their right mind would pull out of country with ~17% market share.

[deleted]

Re: A new approach to China

#97

Post by drhodes »

maxklein wrote: post #4

It's easy to shut down the site when you are losing the search game to local competition. In any case, even though I find freedom of speech to be necessary and encouraged, I do not think that Google is right to imply in this blog post that the Chinese government is behind the attacks.

maxklein was introducing a key point in the debate here, and was downmodded. I think negative votes should be reserved for spam, offtopic and that ilk. Otherwise, people will not voice dissent, thus ignoring an entire branch of reasoning, which ironically is what this entire debate comes down to.

Re: A new approach to China

#98

Post by adrianwaj »

pyre wrote: post #79
JCThoughtscream wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The targeting of Chinese human rights activists' email accounts don't seem Suspicious to you? Exactly what /private/ group would have motive for this?

There are supposedly a lot of hyper-nationalistic youths (specifically in the teens-20s age range) in China right now. I could see a group of them being hackers and feeling that they are doing this for the 'honour of their country' or something similar.

It'd be more like 1 hyper nationalist cherry picking the best hackers through tests and exam results and then telling them (ie forcing them) to weed out dissenters and whatever else they can get.

Re: A new approach to China

#99

Post by Frazzydee »

pavs wrote: post #28
code_devil wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well,the decision could also have been made along with the fact that they don't have a large user base. I am guessing "Baidu" is still pretty popular there. I wonder if they would have done the same if they had a 60% penetration in the Chinese market. EDIT: Why am I being downmodded ? I thought we are supposed to have open discussions here. (I did find the actual google mkt share in the TC blog later, but I was prese…

Even if they have 5% market pulling out of china is huge. They currently have ~17% market share in China. No profit-making company in their right mind would pull out of country with ~17% market share.

Reference for 17% market share: http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/12/28/googl...
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