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Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

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Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#441

Post by kbenson »

mikeokner wrote: post #435
kbenson wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you add the google docs integration, or the dropbox integration, or the box integration, or use the Zapier integration to tie things together. Slack isn't a file sharing platform, it's a communication platform. As such, they try to make communicating about, discovery and grouping of files in dedicated file sharing platforms easier.

That's a terrible solution for anyone handling data that has to remain on-prem, which is the case for a lot of large corporations that deal with financial data, personal id data, etc.

Of course it's a bad solution in that case. You've picked a case where a specific business requirement precludes using an external service. In which case, why would you use slack anyway, since it would then necessitate a chunk of your communication be external as well?

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#442

Post by TeMPOraL »

enraged_camel wrote: post #301
mempko wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In many cases, things are popular because they are better/easier for a given audience. Which is the horse and which is the cart? Slack is easy because it got resources to be easy. Those same resource could have invested time to make IRC just as easy. There is no inherent reason why IRC cannot be just as simple. The reason slack is popular is because it got pushed hard and lots of money went into making it easy and…

This is like saying Apple products are popular because Apple has a great marketing team, as opposed to because said products are genuinely easier to use (they "just work") than their alternatives.

Yes, it's pretty much self-evident truth. "Genuinely easier to use", even if it was clear-cut thing, doesn't explain the levels of popularity Apple products have. Lifestyle branding does.

It reminds me of Raspberry Pi. There are lots of more powerful boards that you can buy cheaper, but people still mostly buy RPi because it is the brand.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#443

Post by TeMPOraL »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #330
njharman wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that is why Apple is so popular. They are a marketing monster! They sell a "lifestyle" and they do it extremely well. They tell you to "Think Different" (as long as it means buying an apple product). They tell you one button is easy and the best. They tell people what to think and (some) people think that.

Yet they spend less on marketing then most major tech companies. One could just argue they spend their marketing budget well, but you have to wonder.

They spend just maintenance level. Tech press and media does the marketing for them.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#444

Post by cwyers »

Killswitch wrote: post #370
akshatpradhan wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's the problem with IRC. The idea of decentralized IRC networks means that channels are scattered amongst multiple IRC networks. IRC is already not as usable as Slack, and to have multiple networks decreases usability even further. I love IRC, but I see why Slack is full of win.

But decentralized is the best thing ever! I hate that argument. If decentralized was so great, then it'd be more popular, but it's not. More and more centralized stuff is exploding in popularity.

Centralization is being driven by a lot of things, not least of which is that decentralization is really really hard. But a lot of it comes from mobile -- the idea behind decentralized apps before mobile came along was that bandwidth was not very dear -- oh, sure, it was limited in the days when IRC first became popular, but there was no reason to leave any of it unused. Local compute power was the same -- you may not have had a lot of it, but there was no reason to leave what you had sitting idle. Mobile is different. Idle CPU power can mean the CPU is throttled down to save on power and heat dissipation. Instead of staying connected to a server at all times, use "push" notifications so the server can let you know when it's worth using battery power and metered data to talk to the server.

Decentralized systems, and peer-to-peer systems, and even centralized systems designed around computers designed to sit next to a wall outlet and draw power from a practically unlimited source are all being replaced by systems that are more centralized and better equipped to talk to mobile. AOL Instant Messenger is dying because it was built around an older paradigm and, at least last time I bothered to try it, is an incredible battery drain on Android devices. Newer messenger apps that are built mobile first or at least make mobile an equal partner to PCs are winning instead. And it's the same for group chat -- IRC is built for old-fashioned PCs, Slack is built with mobile in mind.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#445

Post by TeMPOraL »

tptacek wrote: post #293
rhizome wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm thinking a huge part of the difference between Slack and IRC audiences has to do with the $340MM Slack has raised. If someone gave "IRC" a quarter of a billion dollars, the differences might not be so obvious.

If you gave "IRC" a quarter of a billion dollars, we'd have the world's most complex ncurses UI, and a security ACL system whose complexity would rival X509. And normal people would still use Slack, because Slack was able to make simple design decisions that benefit the overwhelming majority of users but piss off Unix nerds like us.

Giving "IRC" a quarter of a billion dollars isn't a good idea. Giving it to a company making a single IRC client, on the other hand, would probably result in something like Slack, only much better.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#446

Post by kbenson »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #439
pyre wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also harder to base a business atop decentralized network, and when building a new network there is less of a business case in spending the extra time, stress and expertise to make it decentralized (vs. centralized).

Let's state explicitly why it's harder to base a business atop a decentralized network - because a business makes money by creating friction in the service, and in a decentralized model a friction too strong will be routed around.

Well, I think it depends on whether you are talking about decentralized networks, as I read the parent to your comment to mean, or decentralized ownership/administration of networks, as I read your comment to mean.

That is, the network can be decentralized but still administered by a single business entity, in which case you theoretically get a network more robust to outages, or the network can be composed of many separate entities, in which case you are theoretically protected from the bad behavior of any one administering entity, since there are many others (as in your example).

The other reason it may be harder to build a business atop a decentralized network is that the costs associated extra hardware, software, and locations and troubleshooting required to achieve the gains of a decentralized network may outweigh the gains achieved by doing so.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#447

Post by muzmath »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #442
enraged_camel wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying Apple products are popular because Apple has a great marketing team, as opposed to because said products are genuinely easier to use (they "just work") than their alternatives.

Yes, it's pretty much self-evident truth. "Genuinely easier to use", even if it was clear-cut thing, doesn't explain the levels of popularity Apple products have. Lifestyle branding does. It reminds me of Raspberry Pi. There are lots of more powerful boards that you can buy cheaper, but people still mostly buy RPi because it is the brand.

Buying 'the brand' can also lead to much more documentation which can make the 10% change in price worth while.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#448

Post by cydrobolt »

I can't agree more with this headline. I can concede that IRC isn't the most modern of technologies, but it is effective and well-developed at what it does. There is a FOSS ecosystem that can be achieved with IRC, which cannot be achieved with Slack. As a FOSS project, you can commit to only using free and open software when you also use IRC, as software such as atheme or charybdis are all open.

Additionally, Slack is more privatized, with a less opportunities for enhancement (e.g IRC bots, IRC webchat, many clients). All users also need to sign up prior to use, which is just simply not viable. IRC manages large influx of help-seekers or project members well with its op-voice-user and ban/quiet system, allowing for channel operators to handle the high amount of users without a problem.

On the other hand, Slack fails at all of these points, as it is intended for internal team usage and struggles with this specific usecase.

Furthermore, most FOSS contributors are also not contributors to a single project only. For instance, I personally contribute to a variety of FOSS projects, and it is extremely easy for me to coordinate with all of those projects simply by opening a new channel on my freenode or OFTC network in my IRC client. Slack lacks this, requiring a new tab for each project and really lacking support for FOSS operating systems such as Linux distributions, a problem that is likely not going to be fixed due to its closed-source one-client structure.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#449

Post by sonthonax »

upofadown wrote: post #192
vjeux wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IRC usage stats are really bad. Steady decline from 1 million users in 2003 to 400k in 2012. In a time where we're talking about communication apps with hundreds of millions of users, not even having a million is pretty telling to me. http://royal.pingdom.com/2012/04/24/irc-is-dead-long-live-ir...

A lot of IRC usage used to be purely social. So the fact that that are lots less users isn't really indicative of anything in the context of FOSS development.

Good point, usage for gaming has also died completely. Old networks like QuakeNet existed to allow gamers to co-ordinate match making. Now who needs that?.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#450

Post by yo-code-sucks »

spdustin wrote: post #211
mbillie1 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If IRC were good enough to handle the needs of small software company communication, people would use IRC. Sitting here pretending everyone just doesn't know about a 20+ year old technology is comical. I'd just like to point out that this argument ("if were so great, everyone would already use/do ") is just a slightly different form of the ancient appeal to popularity argument and is entirely fallacious.

Respectfully, I disagree. In many cases, things are popular because they are better/easier for a given audience. I'm a smart guy, have managed (and continue to manage) many, many UNIX-based services, and have run several IRC daemons in my life. I still use Slack for internal use, and for our students. What makes Slack (and its ilk, though the title of the post makes a bias against Slack clear) so great is that it's s…

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