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Making Insider Trading Legal

newyorker.com

121–130 of 169 posts

Re: Making Insider Trading Legal

#122
post #20

> Many people on Wall Street felt that Bharara’s crusade against insider trading was recklessly broad: An analyst like Horvath might knowingly obtain an illegal tip, but if he feeds his information up the chain to a Steinberg or a Cohen, and they take his word that he is not passing along stolen goods, should they really go to prison for that misplaced faith? Is it fair to convict someone of engaging in insider tradi…

Problem: Insider trading isn't about illegally obtained information. The SEC defines insider trading as:

> "Illegal insider trading refers generally to buying or selling a security, in breach of a fiduciary duty or other relationship of trust and confidence, while in possession of material, nonpublic information about the security."

So if I hack into someone's server and steal a bunch of secret financial data, and use that to trade, then I am trading based on illegally obtained information, but I am not committing insider trading, because I have no fiduciary duty or relationship of trust and confidence.

Conversely, if I'm a director of a company being acquired, and I trade on my knowledge of the acquisition before it is announced, my knowledge was not illegally obtained, but I am violating a fiduciary duty to the company.

As a general rule (there are exceptions!) insider trading never involves illegally obtained information. It's either illegal information I wasn't meant to know, or it's information I was meant to know but wasn't meant to trade on.

(Note that the news recently broke of a Ukrainian hacking group that was stealing unreleased press releases and selling them to traders. Headlines almost universally called the group an "insider trading ring", but what they seem to have committed was wire fraud[1]. The SEC is gamely trying to pin some security fraud charges on them, because that's what the SEC does, but the plain text of the underlying law is against them, and that theory has yet to prevail in court.)

In the Dell/hedge fund case the New Yorker is talking about, it seems clear that the Dell analyst had a fiduciary duty to Dell, although he was never charged with insider trading, probably because he didn't trade. And the hedge fund guys clearly traded, but they didn't have a fiduciary duty to Dell. Nor could prosecutors point to some sort of exchange where the Dell guy swapped insider information with someone who then traded. If the information had been stolen, then it might still have been a crime (even if not insider trading). But apparently, it wasn't stolen.

In short: Insider trading is about trading in violating of a fiduciary duty or a relationship of trust and confidence. It's not about trading based on illegal information. This is true despite the fact that a lot of people sort of think it would make sense if it was otherwise.

[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/business/dealbook/hacking-...

Edit: A further point of clarification; insider trading law is written to protect a company from the misappropriation of their secrets by insiders for their own benefit. In the example being discussed, it's intended to protect Dell from being harmed by their investor relations guy (Rob Ray, in this case), and it clearly allows the prosecution of Ray if he used Dell's material nonpublic information for his own benefit. Except, in this case, there's no accusation or evidence that he did; he seems to have been trying to use Dell's information for Dell's benefit, and didn't benefit personally at all. That's actually legal. (Well, Dell actually has some rules on what they can let their investor relation's people share, but if those rules were violated then Dell or Ray would be in trouble, not the people they told, and it still wouldn't be insider trading.) But as far as insider trading law goes, the only real possible victim is Dell (it was their information), and the only real possible criminal was Ray, or maaaybe a close relative of Ray, a golf buddy, roomate, etc., or maybe someone who paid Ray to victimise Dell. But Bharara didn't go after Ray or anyone who knew Ray, and he didn't phrase the issue in terms of the damage done to Dell, and that was fundamentally at odds with how insider trading law works.

What Bharara seemed to want is a law that protects small investors from hedge fund traders, not a law that protected Dell from Ray. He's not obviously wrong to want such a law, but he was wrong to think one existed. In any case, keep in mind when discussing insider trading law as it currently stands: It will make ZERO sense unless you remember that it was written to protect Dell from people like Ray, rather than mutual funds from people like Steve Cohen. Even if Dell doesn't really need to be protected from their own investor relation's flaks, and mutual funds really need to be protected from Steve Cohen.

Re: Making Insider Trading Legal

#123
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you pay someone to predict stock movements, and they come to you and say, "short Dell and do not ask me why," you would probably act on that information. After all, you're already employing them for their stock market expertise. As a private citizen without an army of analysts, you would probably subject their claim to more scrutiny. It sounds like insider trading is only "legal" now if you own a hedge fund.

But if you're employing someone to predict stock movements, you presumably are paying them to provide you with advice that will result in profit rather than loss which would make the "why" somewhat implicit. As well, a major red-flag should be raised should anyone tell you "do not ask me why." Insider trading is legal now if you are powerful and wealthy and not an appropriate candidate for some sort of selective enfo…

>a major red-flag should be raised should anyone tell you "do not ask me why."

More realistically, you don't feel the need to ask. They're the expert, not you.

Re: Making Insider Trading Legal

#124

The only chance for the regular guy to make money for retirement is through the stock market. No pensions and polices like 401k and low interest pretty much leave no other chance. I am fine if Wall Streeters rip off each other but with the regular guy pretty much forced into the stock market I think there should be very tight regulation and certainly no insider training.

What is a 401(k) if not participation in the stock (and/or bond) market?

Re: Making Insider Trading Legal

#125
post #13

If everyone with inside information could trade on it without fearing the law, they would reveal the predicted effect of said information via movements in the price of the security. Therefore, free and legal insider trading would actually increase fairness in the market.

When those insiders represents a minority (in capital available to trade with), the positive effects of their trades from improved price signals can be far smaller than the negative effects from the bad incentives created. Consider a government administrator trading with relatively small sums, knowing what effect his unpublished decisions will have. He can make gains that are large for him, while causing significant…

I said free and legal insider trading by everyone. People in the company would also be able to trade on their information regarding potential government actions etc.

Markets are information aggregators.

Re: Making Insider Trading Legal

#126
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you pay someone to predict stock movements, and they come to you and say, "short Dell and do not ask me why," you would probably act on that information. After all, you're already employing them for their stock market expertise. As a private citizen without an army of analysts, you would probably subject their claim to more scrutiny. It sounds like insider trading is only "legal" now if you own a hedge fund.

But if you're employing someone to predict stock movements, you presumably are paying them to provide you with advice that will result in profit rather than loss which would make the "why" somewhat implicit. As well, a major red-flag should be raised should anyone tell you "do not ask me why." Insider trading is legal now if you are powerful and wealthy and not an appropriate candidate for some sort of selective enfo…

If you own a sketchy hedge fund, major red flags could mean that no one else is either privy to or willing to act on that information, meaning that you will make even more money.

And with the new ruling, all you have to do to keep your actions strictly legal is follow that analyst's advice and not ask any probing follow-up questions.

Re: Making Insider Trading Legal

#127
post #124

The only chance for the regular guy to make money for retirement is through the stock market. No pensions and polices like 401k and low interest pretty much leave no other chance. I am fine if Wall Streeters rip off each other but with the regular guy pretty much forced into the stock market I think there should be very tight regulation and certainly no insider training.

What is a 401(k) if not participation in the stock (and/or bond) market?

That's my point. 401k pushes people into the stock market.

Re: Making Insider Trading Legal

#128
post #124

The only chance for the regular guy to make money for retirement is through the stock market. No pensions and polices like 401k and low interest pretty much leave no other chance. I am fine if Wall Streeters rip off each other but with the regular guy pretty much forced into the stock market I think there should be very tight regulation and certainly no insider training.

What is a 401(k) if not participation in the stock (and/or bond) market?

[deleted]

Re: Making Insider Trading Legal

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"insider trading isn't about fairness, it's about theft"

I don't think that's true. If you have a friend on the executive board of pharma company X, and he confides in you over the phone that the internal trials for the company's next big drug failed big time and they're going to announce the results to the public tomorrow, and you dump the stock... that's insider trading. It wasn't theft. The information was willingly given to you by an insider. And it's a crime because y…

Also, think about the people on the other side of that trade. They're buying the stock being dumped based on public information, and you're taking advantage of their ignorance. Morally, that feels awfully close to stealing from them.
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