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Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

drewdevault.com

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Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#361

Post by late2part »

tptacek wrote: post #236
spdustin wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, I disagree. In many cases, things are popular because they are better/easier for a given audience. I'm a smart guy, have managed (and continue to manage) many, many UNIX-based services, and have run several IRC daemons in my life. I still use Slack for internal use, and for our students. What makes Slack (and its ilk, though the title of the post makes a bias against Slack clear) so great is that it's s…

I don't think you're going to find evidence for the argument that IRC is more popular than Slack. IRC's user base is declining, Slack's is growing, and the numbers we have now suggest that Slack is already much more popular.

The military uses IRC.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#363

Post by akshatpradhan »

late2part wrote: post #361
tptacek wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're going to find evidence for the argument that IRC is more popular than Slack. IRC's user base is declining, Slack's is growing, and the numbers we have now suggest that Slack is already much more popular.

The military uses IRC.

Yes they do. Check out ##security on Freenode. I also do some security stuff in ##GRC

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#364

Post by akshatpradhan »

thegeekpirate wrote: post #307
tptacek wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're going to find evidence for the argument that IRC is more popular than Slack. IRC's user base is declining, Slack's is growing, and the numbers we have now suggest that Slack is already much more popular.

Slack has 1.1 million users _total_ ( http://www.fastcompany.com/3047819/with-over-1-million-users... ), meanwhile Twitch uses IRC, and has ~3.3 million per day alone ( http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/01/29/twitchs-viewers-reach... ), using stats taken eleven months ago while more than doubling its monthly viewer numbers every year. Freenode isn't the only network out there =)

I think that's the problem with IRC. The idea of decentralized IRC networks means that channels are scattered amongst multiple IRC networks. IRC is already not as usable as Slack, and to have multiple networks decreases usability even further. I love IRC, but I see why Slack is full of win.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#365

Post by makecheck »

If you want to communicate with a person or organization in ways that don't involve online chat, you have a variety of standard ways for doing so:

- E-mail address

- Phone number

- Mailing address

What is it about chat protocols that has resisted convergence on anything as remotely standard as these other methods? I mean, I could tell somebody that I spray-painted hieroglyphics on my house and that "there are 3 shipping companies in the world that know how to find my house using hieroglyphics so please ship through one of them", yet somehow my "address" has remained the sensible way to handle that problem.

The problem isn't Slack or IRC or any other client, it's that we have any choices at all. At this point we don't need choices for chat protocols any more than we need a choice of ways to put an address on a house. The technical community needs to start loudly criticizing clients that aren't converging on some standard, and standardize more and more behaviors every year until it really doesn't matter what people are using.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#366

Post by kbenson »

vacri wrote: post #331
KirinDave wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, well I am sorry your experience and mine differ. Fortunately you can continue to use your solution without regard to my criticism. But I think if we asked your IRC network how ma you nets plots they experienced in the last 2 years the number would be >1.

Ah, yes, IRC has netsplits. Slack, on the other hand, has "reconnecting...", which I encounter a dozen times a day on it. I guess it's down to personal preference whether you prefer being able to talk with a partial group knowing that some people are absent, and not being able to communicate at all.

Reconnecting in slack then shows you the missed messages. What's the common case for making sure participants have access to all past messages in IRC? An external log, which doesn't really solve the netsplit problem, because it necessarily is part of the split?

I would much prefer clear indication that there is a problem communicating with others so I can fall back to an alternative method of communication.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#367

Post by [deleted] »

akshatpradhan wrote: post #364
thegeekpirate wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slack has 1.1 million users _total_ ( http://www.fastcompany.com/3047819/with-over-1-million-users... ), meanwhile Twitch uses IRC, and has ~3.3 million per day alone ( http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/01/29/twitchs-viewers-reach... ), using stats taken eleven months ago while more than doubling its monthly viewer numbers every year. Freenode isn't the only network out there =)

I think that's the problem with IRC. The idea of decentralized IRC networks means that channels are scattered amongst multiple IRC networks. IRC is already not as usable as Slack, and to have multiple networks decreases usability even further. I love IRC, but I see why Slack is full of win.

[deleted]

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#368

Post by kbenson »

makecheck wrote: post #365

If you want to communicate with a person or organization in ways that don't involve online chat, you have a variety of standard ways for doing so: - E-mail address - Phone number - Mailing address What is it about chat protocols that has resisted convergence on anything as remotely standard as these other methods? I mean, I could tell somebody that I spray-painted hieroglyphics on my house and that "there are 3 shipp…

So, in the US:

> - Phone number

Originally supplied through a monopoly.

> - Mailing address

Government assigned.

> - E-mail address

Originated on a government funded and used network, but eventually settled on open standard.

Having the ability to impose usage until a critical mass is achieved and being first seem to both be criteria.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#369

Post by ash »

briandear wrote: post #210
ash wrote: post #69

Some open source self-hosted alternatives to Slack: * Rocket.Chat ( https://rocket.chat/ ) * Zulip ( https://zulip.org/ ) * Mattermost ( http://www.mattermost.org/ ) * Let's Chat ( http://sdelements.github.io/lets-chat/ ) Oh, and by the way, you could have your own Rocket.Chat instance running in Sandstorm in about 30 seconds: https://sandstorm.io/apps Update. And I would love to see a modern federated chat protocol…

Not sure why I would want to self host what is effectively a phone system. I have actual products to build. We could ease time self hosting source control as well -- to what end? I have members of the team spending time (and thus money) setting up something that pleases people philosophically but really adds zero value -- in fact, it actually costs money (through very expensive developer time.) I don't get the point…

> IRC is terrible.

I didn't mention IRC in my comment :)

It's interesting how you compare Slack with a phone company. There are important differences between Slack and a phone company. 1. If you give me your phone number I could be talking with you in a few seconds without me even knowing the name of our phone company. 2. You could decide to change your phone service provider and (in some countries) even keep your number.

How would you do these things with Slack? Slack is great, and I like it, but it could stop being great at some point in the future.

(Yes, I realize that Rocket.Chat user couldn't chat with Zulip user, for example. That's why I'm excited about efforts like https://matrix.org/.)

I agree with you: it's expensive to self-host. [1] But when it is possible to self-host, you could hire a specialized company to host the chat system for you. And - if you are careful - you can later switch your chat-system-hosting provider if you want.

[1]: That's what https://sandstorm.io is trying to fix, by the way.

Re: Please don't use Slack for FOSS projects

#370

Post by Killswitch »

akshatpradhan wrote: post #364
thegeekpirate wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slack has 1.1 million users _total_ ( http://www.fastcompany.com/3047819/with-over-1-million-users... ), meanwhile Twitch uses IRC, and has ~3.3 million per day alone ( http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/01/29/twitchs-viewers-reach... ), using stats taken eleven months ago while more than doubling its monthly viewer numbers every year. Freenode isn't the only network out there =)

I think that's the problem with IRC. The idea of decentralized IRC networks means that channels are scattered amongst multiple IRC networks. IRC is already not as usable as Slack, and to have multiple networks decreases usability even further. I love IRC, but I see why Slack is full of win.

But decentralized is the best thing ever!

I hate that argument. If decentralized was so great, then it'd be more popular, but it's not. More and more centralized stuff is exploding in popularity.

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