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Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

nytimes.com

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Re: Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

#11

Post by jessriedel »

userbinator wrote: post #5
ceautery wrote: post #3

There's a long history of railroad involvement in time changes, e.g., the "Day of two Noons". Adjustments for railroads are why we have time zones, and why Date.toLocaleString has weird minute and second offsets for pre-1800 dates: http://curtisautery.appspot.com/5779342353235968

The alternative would be for everyone to use something like UTC, which means that while their relationship to the sun changes depending on location, the actual value is the same everywhere. I find this especially useful when scheduling online meetings with participants from many countries.

Right, but if you only use UTC then you can't tell when it's appropriate to call people or schedule meeting in various parts of the world. ("OK, this person is in Hong Kong and I want to schedule the meeting at 11:00 UTC. What time does the sun rise in Hong Kong?")

Re: Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

#12

Post by jwmerrill »

jessriedel wrote: post #11
userbinator wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative would be for everyone to use something like UTC, which means that while their relationship to the sun changes depending on location, the actual value is the same everywhere. I find this especially useful when scheduling online meetings with participants from many countries.

Right, but if you only use UTC then you can't tell when it's appropriate to call people or schedule meeting in various parts of the world. ("OK, this person is in Hong Kong and I want to schedule the meeting at 11:00 UTC. What time does the sun rise in Hong Kong?")

It seems like this is no different than the current situation. Today, you look up what time it is in Hong Kong. In UTC world, you look up what hours are business hours in Hong Kong.

Re: Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

#13

Post by paublyrne »

jwmerrill wrote: post #12
jessriedel wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but if you only use UTC then you can't tell when it's appropriate to call people or schedule meeting in various parts of the world. ("OK, this person is in Hong Kong and I want to schedule the meeting at 11:00 UTC. What time does the sun rise in Hong Kong?")

It seems like this is no different than the current situation. Today, you look up what time it is in Hong Kong. In UTC world, you look up what hours are business hours in Hong Kong.

It is really. 'Business hours' isn't scientifically defined. If I say to Google, 'time in Melbourne', I'll see it's 3.11AM. And if I need to know what time it is in three of my offices, I can save those cities in my clock and swipe between them at any time.

Re: Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

#14

Post by ottonomy »

jwmerrill wrote: post #12
jessriedel wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but if you only use UTC then you can't tell when it's appropriate to call people or schedule meeting in various parts of the world. ("OK, this person is in Hong Kong and I want to schedule the meeting at 11:00 UTC. What time does the sun rise in Hong Kong?")

It seems like this is no different than the current situation. Today, you look up what time it is in Hong Kong. In UTC world, you look up what hours are business hours in Hong Kong.

Yeah. China has one time-zone, but is wide enough for five, and they already treat time like this.

The last week has been stupid, with UK and Europe already switching back to standard time with the US lagging on DST.

UTC Now! (Sent at 16:16 UTC)

Re: Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

#15

Post by ryanhuff »

ck2 wrote: post #7

What blows my mind is the collective amount of "news" articles we get twice a year, every year for DST The American public (and world public for that matter) is obviously 100% apathetic. If you really want this to change then you have to goad politicians and tell them how the USA is stuck in the 20th century and going backwards. But good luck with them caring about that either.

I prefer that we keep "DST" all year long. Its more pleasant leaving work while its still daylight. And I suspect that many US citizens think the same.

Re: Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

#16

Post by jwmerrill »

paublyrne wrote: post #13
jwmerrill wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like this is no different than the current situation. Today, you look up what time it is in Hong Kong. In UTC world, you look up what hours are business hours in Hong Kong.

It is really. 'Business hours' isn't scientifically defined. If I say to Google, 'time in Melbourne', I'll see it's 3.11AM. And if I need to know what time it is in three of my offices, I can save those cities in my clock and swipe between them at any time.

UTC would make some things easier and some things harder. I think it would make reliably scheduling meetings easier.

Suppose you want to schedule a phone call for two weeks from now with your colleague in Melbourne. That's currently kind of challenging. It's fairly easy to accidentally agree to an inconsistent time. What if that two weeks straddles a DST change in one country, but not the other?

In UTC world, you agree to a single time, and there's no confusion. To pick an appropriate time, just look up the range of business hours in Melbohrne, and intersect those hours with the business hours wherever you are.

I don't really see how your google or clock app examples are compelling. Just google "business hours in Melbourne", and then save those in an app or wherever if you think you'll want that information again soon.

Re: Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

#17

Post by eru »

ryanhuff wrote: post #15
ck2 wrote: post #7

What blows my mind is the collective amount of "news" articles we get twice a year, every year for DST The American public (and world public for that matter) is obviously 100% apathetic. If you really want this to change then you have to goad politicians and tell them how the USA is stuck in the 20th century and going backwards. But good luck with them caring about that either.

I prefer that we keep "DST" all year long. Its more pleasant leaving work while its still daylight. And I suspect that many US citizens think the same.

You propose moving timezones east by one hour?

Re: Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

#18

Post by cxseven »

userbinator wrote: post #5
ceautery wrote: post #3

There's a long history of railroad involvement in time changes, e.g., the "Day of two Noons". Adjustments for railroads are why we have time zones, and why Date.toLocaleString has weird minute and second offsets for pre-1800 dates: http://curtisautery.appspot.com/5779342353235968

The alternative would be for everyone to use something like UTC, which means that while their relationship to the sun changes depending on location, the actual value is the same everywhere. I find this especially useful when scheduling online meetings with participants from many countries.

Don't forget that UTC has leap seconds, too. This may not cause problems for trains, but it does for servers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8839458

TAI is like UTC but without leap seconds.

Re: Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

#19

Post by nebulus »

speakeron wrote: post #8
userbinator wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative would be for everyone to use something like UTC, which means that while their relationship to the sun changes depending on location, the actual value is the same everywhere. I find this especially useful when scheduling online meetings with participants from many countries.

Yes, that's a cool way to do it and somewhat natural if you're a server person; but perhaps mentally challenging for a lot of people. Remember Swatch Internet Time[1]? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time

I wish this would catch on again. Swatch Internet Time was a pre-Twitter invention, and the live global connection to one another was weaker than it is now. I'd love to see it supported as a timestamp in forum software, Twitter clients, etc.

Re: Clocks Change Tomorrow [1918] [pdf]

#20

Post by rspeer »

eru wrote: post #17
ryanhuff wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer that we keep "DST" all year long. Its more pleasant leaving work while its still daylight. And I suspect that many US citizens think the same.

You propose moving timezones east by one hour?

I certainly think New England should move a time-zone to the east in the winter. The least disruptive way to do that would be to get on DST one year and never get off.

This solar time vs. standard time map [1] indicates that most of the world prefers to slightly bias their daylight hours to the afternoon, and I'd be happier if we joined them.

[1] http://blog.poormansmath.net/how-much-is-time-wrong-around-t...

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