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Busybox removes support for systemd

git.busybox.net

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Re: Busybox removes support for systemd

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics. "But politics shouldn't be a factor in software design. We should cooperate to work with the technologically most useful solution and not let personal or ideological differences get in the way." Bless your heart.

That's one of the critics of open source (BSD) world versus free software world. GNU /Linux projects have been designed for figthing on socio-ethico-political grounds against proprietary software. The first one being Unix. (GNU's Not Unix) On the other hand, BSD prefers to see itself like a community of pragmatism, and creating values in business by sharing externalities (plus a bunch of fanatics that loves nice code…

My interpretation is a tad more charitable.

The reason the Linux community is so dysfunctional is because, for most people born during a certain time period, it's the first ever OS they use that isn't Windows, and the first ever Unix. Naturally this creates a lot of sudden revelations, and a lot of blowhards who think they're hot because they can rice their Arch Linux box. In the process a lot of false sense of technical prowess is generated.

Moreover, the network effects become so strong that at some point (which has already been crossed) Linux becomes the alternative OS, and from then on people feel like they can just ignore everyone else with impunity. They start to perceive themselves as the leaders, and everyone else must be biting their dust. Notice how Linux users often tend to be ignorant (and not only that, but resentful) of what BSD, Solaris, MINIX, Hurd and other folks are doing. Not the case with users of those other OSes, who as underdogs have more of a reason to cooperate and usually also have to study what the other is doing, especially so that Linux the big dog doesn't poorly reinvent some interface that ends up mutating across FOSS and leaving their access to portable software in the dust.

If through some historical accident 386BSD ended up making it unfettered from the trademark lawsuit fallout, it likely would have followed the same course. So would have the Hurd.

Re: Busybox removes support for systemd

#22
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some controversy about Systemd and Lennart Poettering, one of the main developers. Wikipedia have more info: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#History_and_controvers... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering#Controversi...

What I don't get is, if systemd is so troublesome, why are so many distros picking it up? I know popularity isn't a perfect signal, but in this case of highly technical users that are distributing OSes it seems valid.

I'd also like an answer to this question, as well as an answer to the question of what, in exacting detail please, was so wrong with the previous system it needed to be torn out and replaced?

I definitely tend toward the curmudgeonly, but to this grumpy old man, it seems like we're replacing things simply for the sake of change.

Re: Busybox removes support for systemd

#23
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some controversy about Systemd and Lennart Poettering, one of the main developers. Wikipedia have more info: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#History_and_controvers... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering#Controversi...

What I don't get is, if systemd is so troublesome, why are so many distros picking it up? I know popularity isn't a perfect signal, but in this case of highly technical users that are distributing OSes it seems valid.

I'm just guessing here, but systemd makes some things more convinient by being overall more monolithic, like Windows, and especially distros that are targeting a less technical crowd want to be able to compete with Windows in terms of features and usability. Non-technical people most likely don't see any of the beauty of a strictly modular system or proper clean code.

And this is not about the init-daemon, it is about systemd as a whole integrated suite of daemons that connect easily and add fancy new features, while on the other side you might have to modify two completely independent software projects to add a new feature that uses both, and even then there most likely are alternatives to each one, and you feature will only work with this specific combination. So a more monolithic system, which systemd is despite Lennard denying this, makes development faster, but will bite you in the long run, especially when the code and documentation quality is as poor as systemd's.

Re: Busybox removes support for systemd

#24
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't get is, if systemd is so troublesome, why are so many distros picking it up? I know popularity isn't a perfect signal, but in this case of highly technical users that are distributing OSes it seems valid.

I'd also like an answer to this question, as well as an answer to the question of what, in exacting detail please, was so wrong with the previous system it needed to be torn out and replaced? I definitely tend toward the curmudgeonly, but to this grumpy old man, it seems like we're replacing things simply for the sake of change.

Nah, the old system did need replacing [1], and plenty of them were in fact done. [2] Evidently they went understudied, though.

[1] http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/sy...

[2] http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/09/05/0/

Re: Busybox removes support for systemd

#25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fashionable in some parts of the linux world to hate on systemd.

After Arch Linux, Debian, Fedora, Red Hat and CentOS switched over to systemd, it must be a very tiny part of the Linux world.

I don't think so, as every time I see systemd mentioned in a headline - the comments are filled with arguments over its use.

Re: Busybox removes support for systemd

#26
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also like an answer to this question, as well as an answer to the question of what, in exacting detail please, was so wrong with the previous system it needed to be torn out and replaced? I definitely tend toward the curmudgeonly, but to this grumpy old man, it seems like we're replacing things simply for the sake of change.

Nah, the old system did need replacing [1], and plenty of them were in fact done. [2] Evidently they went understudied, though. [1] http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/sy... [2] http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/09/05/0/

Thanks -- this is exactly the sort of follow-up I was hoping for!

Re: Busybox removes support for systemd

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics. "But politics shouldn't be a factor in software design. We should cooperate to work with the technologically most useful solution and not let personal or ideological differences get in the way." Bless your heart.

That's one of the critics of open source (BSD) world versus free software world. GNU /Linux projects have been designed for figthing on socio-ethico-political grounds against proprietary software. The first one being Unix. (GNU's Not Unix) On the other hand, BSD prefers to see itself like a community of pragmatism, and creating values in business by sharing externalities (plus a bunch of fanatics that loves nice code…

Don't forget:

https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2349257

Re: Busybox removes support for systemd

#28
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some controversy about Systemd and Lennart Poettering, one of the main developers. Wikipedia have more info: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#History_and_controvers... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering#Controversi...

What I don't get is, if systemd is so troublesome, why are so many distros picking it up? I know popularity isn't a perfect signal, but in this case of highly technical users that are distributing OSes it seems valid.

Part of the reason is that systemd has absorbed functionality of a number of additional pieces of software, to the point that they are no longer maintained discretely - udev being the best example.

Another part of the reason is that Red Hat forcibly landed systemd in Fedora and then RHEL7, and RH is an elephant on the scale of Linux development.

Re: Busybox removes support for systemd

#29
post #3

> systemd people are not willing to play nice with the rest of the world. Can we get a bit a of context on that?

After they repurposed the "debug" kernel flag and made it literally unusable with systemd, Linus banned one of their core devs (Kay Sievers) from contributing to the Linux kernel, and I quote: "I'm not willing to merge something where the maintainer is known to not care about bugs and regressions and then forces people in other projects to fix their project." https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420

It's worth noting that this is a case of Linus flying off the handle based on incomplete information. It was latter revealed that the bug which caused this whole spat on LKML had already been fixed in systemd, Kay Sievers just failed to communicate that in the bug opened by Borislav Petkov.

Re: Busybox removes support for systemd

#30
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some controversy about Systemd and Lennart Poettering, one of the main developers. Wikipedia have more info: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#History_and_controvers... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering#Controversi...

What I don't get is, if systemd is so troublesome, why are so many distros picking it up? I know popularity isn't a perfect signal, but in this case of highly technical users that are distributing OSes it seems valid.

Well that's a good question, I'd like to have an answer to that. debian adoption of systemd was a bumpy ride to say the least, it caused a few long time contributors to resign and others to fork debian to remove systemd in a new distro called devuan.

Then again systemd gobbled other critical components such as udev, there's also gnome that made it a strict requirement, like a cancer it grows and takes over other components.

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