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Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice

nytimes.com

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Re: Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice

#51

Post by nickff »

makecheck wrote: post #13

It's not just the length of the initial contract, it's the lack of a sane "diff" system. Even if someone is willing and able to read a 44 page contract the first time, the next time version 1.0.1 of something comes out you are generally given a 44.5 page contract to re-agree to. "Somewhere" in there, they changed something; good luck figuring it out. So even if the version you read gave you permission to sue, the ame…

What if arbitration clauses are not a problem at all? There is a great deal of contradictory evidence with respect to whether arbitration is more or less favorable to consumers and employees (though it is definitely very bad for class-action lawyers). But even if we assume for the purpose of argument that consumers always lose disputes which are arbitrated, they may be willing to make that trade in exchange for reduced prices on goods and services, as well as higher salaries.

Re: Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice

#52

Post by hackuser »

makecheck wrote: post #13

It's not just the length of the initial contract, it's the lack of a sane "diff" system. Even if someone is willing and able to read a 44 page contract the first time, the next time version 1.0.1 of something comes out you are generally given a 44.5 page contract to re-agree to. "Somewhere" in there, they changed something; good luck figuring it out. So even if the version you read gave you permission to sue, the ame…

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would accomplish anything. A major point of the article is that consumers and employees generally have no power to negotiate; even if you can read the contract easily, there's little you can do about it.

Re: Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice

#54

Post by hackuser »

I'm disappointed that consumer research organizations, such as Consumer Reports, don't include these issues in their reports. For example, their review of many products could include:

* Legal control: Is it free/open? Is the user just a licensee?

* User privacy: Is user data collected? How much? Can the user access it? Does the user control it?

* Legal recourse: Is arbitration required? Are class actions banned?

These issues have a large impact on consumers; I don't understand why they are overlooked. It also would raise awareness, a necessary step in addressing with them.

Re: Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice

#55

Post by hackuser »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #14

I've always wondered: since I don't have the ability or power to negotiate these contracts, are they even a legal contract regardless of if I agree to them? Moreover, as a consumer, all (or nearly all) establishments that sell similar products use similar contracts, so do I actually have a choice?

The article made clear that they are enforced.

Re: Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice

#57

Post by jcfrei »

nickff wrote: post #51
makecheck wrote: post #13

It's not just the length of the initial contract, it's the lack of a sane "diff" system. Even if someone is willing and able to read a 44 page contract the first time, the next time version 1.0.1 of something comes out you are generally given a 44.5 page contract to re-agree to. "Somewhere" in there, they changed something; good luck figuring it out. So even if the version you read gave you permission to sue, the ame…

What if arbitration clauses are not a problem at all? There is a great deal of contradictory evidence with respect to whether arbitration is more or less favorable to consumers and employees (though it is definitely very bad for class-action lawyers). But even if we assume for the purpose of argument that consumers always lose disputes which are arbitrated, they may be willing to make that trade in exchange for reduc…

That's a good point. One could just argue that in time consumers will just favor contracts with companies that either don't have arbitration clauses or if they do the consumer doesn't care anyway about losing potential disputes. I think it's only really a problem when a company holds a (quasi) monopoly in a certain business. Like telcos do in the US in many states.

Re: Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice

#58

Post by rmc »

makecheck wrote: post #13

It's not just the length of the initial contract, it's the lack of a sane "diff" system. Even if someone is willing and able to read a 44 page contract the first time, the next time version 1.0.1 of something comes out you are generally given a 44.5 page contract to re-agree to. "Somewhere" in there, they changed something; good luck figuring it out. So even if the version you read gave you permission to sue, the ame…

And then abusive companies can just make a near unreadable diff. Rearrange all the sections in the document so that the diff is massive and unreadable.

Re: Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice

#59

Post by ende »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #46
ccvannorman wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the "diff" is a big one. There should be 5-10 major types of contracts that companies can work from, and consumers should be told "This is contract 5. The diff is as follows:" and limit the diff in length

Some states have this. In Texas for example there is a statewide standard residential lease contract. When you rent property in Texas you know what you're getting into.

Ive been trying to think of an effective way of regulating these sorts of contacts through legislation, and what you're describing seems like the simplest route. Simply have the public draft the standard contractual templates on behalf of consumers/employees/tenants that companies/employers/landlords are constrained to use.

Re: Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice

#60

Post by raj_o »

nickff wrote: post #51
makecheck wrote: post #13

It's not just the length of the initial contract, it's the lack of a sane "diff" system. Even if someone is willing and able to read a 44 page contract the first time, the next time version 1.0.1 of something comes out you are generally given a 44.5 page contract to re-agree to. "Somewhere" in there, they changed something; good luck figuring it out. So even if the version you read gave you permission to sue, the ame…

What if arbitration clauses are not a problem at all? There is a great deal of contradictory evidence with respect to whether arbitration is more or less favorable to consumers and employees (though it is definitely very bad for class-action lawyers). But even if we assume for the purpose of argument that consumers always lose disputes which are arbitrated, they may be willing to make that trade in exchange for reduc…

They are a problem now. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is a one sided contract. Can you ever envision a contract solely drafted by one side to be beneficial to both sides?

The only contradictory 'evidence' is talk about why it's better; that is, companies claim it's an easier and cheaper process. They fail to mention that what they mean is, it's easier and cheaper to them.

As a consumer, I want the laws to be written by my elected politician, don't you? Sure, there's a lot of unfairness to it. But I can't imagine a selfish corporation, one that keeps claiming their only loyalty is the the share holder, will do much better.

Just one example. You know VWs recent emission scandal? In the USA those people signed not only an arbitration agreement, but one that disallows class actions. You won't hear the problems that arbitration is causing because those problems won't make it to a court of law to be a problem.

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