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China to begin two-child policy

bbc.co.uk

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Re: China to begin two-child policy

#91

Post by XorNot »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #69
XorNot wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in no part of the world of the modern world has human population increase continued unchecked. Most western countries populations grow only because of immigration - fertility is below the replacement rate. Overpopulation is the "problem" people trot out so they don't have to talk about things they might actually have to do something about, like switching to renewable energy sources, or improving women's educat…

Yes and that's why I included culling in the options. Doesn't need to be voluntary. Diseases, war, famine all are under the same umbrella.

No, you've still failed to comprehend the point: people, in general, do not have more then 2 children on average, as they increase their lifestyle.

Which highlights the other reason people talking about overpopulation are unsettling: suddenly everyone's playing psychopath.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#92

Post by adrianN »

kalleboo wrote: post #85
adrianN wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A less severe form would be financial incentives for licensed parents. You're still free to have children if you want, but you're only supported by the state if you got a license. Pair this with free birth control implants and abortions for everyone who wants them and you get most of the effect without the use of force. You could even pay men to get a vasectomy.

> You're still free to have children if you want, but you're only supported by the state if you got a license This will only mean the most vulnerable (who need the most support) will be unsupported. You're creating an underclass.

If only certain people are encouraged to have children, you automatically have an underclass, no matter how it's implemented. I think that providing free (or more incentivized) birth control would lead to very few cases of unwanted children. IUDs and vasectomies are simple and effective.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#93

Post by bigfudge »

hvs wrote: post #83
rubidium wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most disgusting thing about the policy is that the citizens let the state have that much power. It's a terrible thing to let economic concerns so dominant the public arena and politics that people let the gov't decide how many kids they have.

It's a communist gov't. The people "letting the gov't decide" has little do with it.

No matter the history, using communist as a synonym for totalitarian is lazy.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#94

Post by norea-armozel »

trymas wrote: post #52
Mimick wrote: post #47

Overpopulation isn't that of a big problem as the politics make it seem.

Why (I am serious, as IMHO today's global population is too big)?

It's mostly a resource allocation problem the last time I checked at least with regard to food. We make plenty of it, but we're terrible at allocating it. Water? I think that one is definitely in shortage with regard to potable water. And other resources are more easily managed like metals and other materials that go into electronics we use everywhere (I'm thinking mostly medical, educational, and communications here).

Other than water, I think the only real problem with the current and projected populations is energy. It's not cheap to get oil. And we use it in everything. So, it's really a matter of time before the question of energy makes the rest of the abundance we have useless. No cheap oil means no cheap way to ship food to markets.

So, I'm split on how to see the problem as it is. I think Malthus is going to get the last laugh on all of us.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#95

Post by ZenoArrow »

jazzyk wrote: post #64
ZenoArrow wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If so, I totally support the idea of licensing human breeding." That sort of licensing is ripe for abuse. What would happen if someone in power took that license away from you just because they didn't agree with your political views?

Not just political views. Most people would agree that mentally ill people should not have children. But what constitutes mentally ill? The line is fuzzy - perhaps someone is just a bit "quirky", but still could be a good parent? In order to have a license the criteria would have to be crystal clear and added to the Constitution (sorry, US-centric). And even if in the Constitution, someone could abuse it (see: NSA, s…

> "Not just political views."

Yes, not just political views. As you say, the mentally ill would be one targeted group, former criminals would be another, etc... The most divisive issue would probably be whether those living in poverty would be given the license.

> "In order to have a license the criteria would have to be crystal clear and added to the Constitution (sorry, US-centric). And even if in the Constitution, someone could abuse it (see: NSA, surveillance)."

At most, I could imagine the benefits of taking precautions against accidental pregnancies (vasectomies, etc...), but only as long as those measures would be reversible at any time. I could also see the need for encouraging single child families as the least draconian method of population control (should overpopulation ever become a big issue). Anything beyond that strikes me as a step too far.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#96

Post by zero_iq »

vincentkriek wrote: post #74
sethbannon wrote: post #56

From the article "All couples will now be allowed to have two children". So it seems China isn't so much ending its one-child policy, as augmenting it by one to a two-child policy. This means the brutal and cruel enforcement will continue, only it will kick in at the third child instead of at the second.

Brutal and cruel? I agree it's a severe limit on the personal freedom but China doesn't value personal freedom as highly as the west does. Brutal and cruel is not the right terms for this in my opinion, you can have a beautiful, rich and fullfilling life with 2 children or less. You can plan to have just two children (up to some point). Also, I think it could benefit the earth if more countries would limit children.

The policy itself isn't cruel or brutal, but the enforcement can be terrible.

Brutal and cruel acts include:

* Killing of child immediately after birth

* Killing of child whilst being born, e.g. in birth canal during birth

* Termination of pregnancy as late as 8.5 months

* Forced abortions (incorporating kidnapping and assault)

All of these things have happened routinely as part of enforcement of the "one child" policy in China and have been widely reported on by human rights organisations. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#Human_rights_...

The policy has also encouraged infanticide/gendercide, corruption, child abandonment, neglect, and abuse.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#97

Post by bigfudge »

throwaway_789 wrote: post #73
[deleted] wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

That would be eugenics. The how-to gusto and historical tone-deafness of three commenters in this chain are flabbergasting.

You're being down voted, but I don't know why. The tone of the debate is surprising to me too.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#98

Post by lalalandland »

paublyrne wrote: post #7

This has been expected for a while. Hopefully it can help address the increasing gender imbalance. It has reached 6:5 male to female births, resulting in huge numbers of Chinese men who cannot find marriage partners.

There are 9 million more boys than girls, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China. That is a massive number.

Re: China to begin two-child policy

#100

Post by bko »

sahreeg wrote: post #87
vincentkriek wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brutal and cruel? I agree it's a severe limit on the personal freedom but China doesn't value personal freedom as highly as the west does. Brutal and cruel is not the right terms for this in my opinion, you can have a beautiful, rich and fullfilling life with 2 children or less. You can plan to have just two children (up to some point). Also, I think it could benefit the earth if more countries would limit children.

I completely agree with you. In terms of population alone, we are exceedingly multiplying; something that might not be of out best advantage. More even when you consider that there will be less opportunities for an increasing number of people, and we will lose this personal freedom you spoke of -to an extent- I am also pro child limit laws. I would suggest nothing too strict, just impose a tax on the third child and…

Human ingenuity is the world's greatest resource and leads to wealth creation and advancement of living standards. Limiting population growth would be ill-advised.
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