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Gotthard Base Tunnel

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Re: Gotthard Base Tunnel

#11

Post by syncsynchalt »

ohitsdom wrote: post #9

I think self-driving vehicles will make projects like this even rarer. The two benefits this project achieves are: 1. Safer travel on rails instead of trucks (accidents & environmental) 2. Faster transport between regions (saving 1 - 1.5 hrs) Safety will become almost a non-concern with self driving cars. Work still needs to be done to minimize environmental impact, but electric cars are coming on strong. Faster tran…

Not so much in this particular case — the purpose of the tunnel is to reduce heavy truck traffic through environmentally sensitive areas. The tunnel is explicitly built to satisfy a goal of transforming truck freight to rail freight. The fast passenger time is only listed as a side benefit.

Re: Gotthard Base Tunnel

#12

Post by rayiner »

ohitsdom wrote: post #9

I think self-driving vehicles will make projects like this even rarer. The two benefits this project achieves are: 1. Safer travel on rails instead of trucks (accidents & environmental) 2. Faster transport between regions (saving 1 - 1.5 hrs) Safety will become almost a non-concern with self driving cars. Work still needs to be done to minimize environmental impact, but electric cars are coming on strong. Faster tran…

This tunnel as well as its predecessor is mainly for rail travel. Trains are already far safer than cars (and there is no reason to believe self-driving cars will be safer than trains), and already let you work en route. Also, this tunnel is for freight rail too, and self-driving cars or trucks aren't really an alternative to that either.

Also: productivity in the office > productivity in a train >> productivity as the passenger in a car. I say that as someone who commutes about three hours a day by train and Uber.

Re: Gotthard Base Tunnel

#13

Post by thom_nic »

TFA doesn't mention whether or how far the project is over budget or behind its original schedule. Does that mean it is on schedule and on budget? If so that's amazing.

I'm used to constantly hearing stories like the "Big Dig" here in the US, sometimes it seems like every non-trivial civil works project fails massively fail on both criteria.

Re: Gotthard Base Tunnel

#14

Post by jo909 »

SeoxyS wrote: post #5
abduhl wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this "seriously maybe the greatest work of engineering on Earth"? It looks like straight forward rock tunneling to me. The alps have good rock that the industry has a lot of experience mining through. Don't get me wrong, the length is impressive but the diameter (10m) is not crazy nor is the ground bad.

What makes this project incredible is how it is dug at the base of the mountain, instead of higher up. That makes it the deepest tunnel, dug under 2,500m of rock at its max. When you have almost two miles of mountain weighing down on you… pressure is intense. The rock has different compositions along the way, some parts have to be dug with boring machines, some parts with explosives. The project has been in construct…

There are deeper mines than that. The long time the project is taking is also an indicator that it is mostly about repeating a certain set of tasks over and over and over again. Certainly there were big challenges, but I imagine they were more of a project planning and management nature than pure engineering problems.

It is quite impressive nontheless.

Re: Gotthard Base Tunnel

#15

Post by piquadrat »

thom_nic wrote: post #13

TFA doesn't mention whether or how far the project is over budget or behind its original schedule. Does that mean it is on schedule and on budget? If so that's amazing. I'm used to constantly hearing stories like the "Big Dig" here in the US, sometimes it seems like every non-trivial civil works project fails massively fail on both criteria.

Originally, the cost of the complete AlpTransit project (of which the Gotthard is part of) was estimated to be about 14.5 billion Swiss Francs (CHF), in 1998. It ended up costing about 18.7 billion CHF, so quite a bit more. The whole project changed quite a bit in the mean time, though (e.g. added security and environmental measures).

source (in German): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neue_Eisenbahn-Alpentransversa...

Re: Gotthard Base Tunnel

#16

Post by bosdev »

thom_nic wrote: post #13

TFA doesn't mention whether or how far the project is over budget or behind its original schedule. Does that mean it is on schedule and on budget? If so that's amazing. I'm used to constantly hearing stories like the "Big Dig" here in the US, sometimes it seems like every non-trivial civil works project fails massively fail on both criteria.

The shocking thing to me is that they are completing the project AHEAD of schedule!

Re: Gotthard Base Tunnel

#17

Post by Swizec »

piquadrat wrote: post #15
thom_nic wrote: post #13

TFA doesn't mention whether or how far the project is over budget or behind its original schedule. Does that mean it is on schedule and on budget? If so that's amazing. I'm used to constantly hearing stories like the "Big Dig" here in the US, sometimes it seems like every non-trivial civil works project fails massively fail on both criteria.

Originally, the cost of the complete AlpTransit project (of which the Gotthard is part of) was estimated to be about 14.5 billion Swiss Francs (CHF), in 1998. It ended up costing about 18.7 billion CHF, so quite a bit more. The whole project changed quite a bit in the mean time, though (e.g. added security and environmental measures). source (in German): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neue_Eisenbahn-Alpentransversa...

That's only 30% over budget. Coming from a country where civil projects are often used to "vanish" money, I am very impressed.

Also coming from software engineering. 30% over budget is just impressive. I would love to be capable of such accurate planning.

Re: Gotthard Base Tunnel

#18

Post by Swizec »

dgorges wrote: post #7

Gotthard Tunnel The Gotthard Base Tunnel (GBT) is a railway tunnel through the Alps in Switzerland expected to open on 2 June 2016. - Length: 35.4 mi - Cost: $10.3 billion - Construction: 1996 - 2016 (est) Bay Bridge The San Francisco–Oakland Bay Bridge (known locally as the Bay Bridge) is a complex of bridges spanning San Francisco Bay in California. - Length: 4.46 miles - Cost: $6.5 billion - Construction: 2002 - 2…

How does average construction worker pay in Bay Area compare to Germany/Switzerland?

Re: Gotthard Base Tunnel

#19

Post by abduhl »

SeoxyS wrote: post #5
abduhl wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this "seriously maybe the greatest work of engineering on Earth"? It looks like straight forward rock tunneling to me. The alps have good rock that the industry has a lot of experience mining through. Don't get me wrong, the length is impressive but the diameter (10m) is not crazy nor is the ground bad.

What makes this project incredible is how it is dug at the base of the mountain, instead of higher up. That makes it the deepest tunnel, dug under 2,500m of rock at its max. When you have almost two miles of mountain weighing down on you… pressure is intense. The rock has different compositions along the way, some parts have to be dug with boring machines, some parts with explosives. The project has been in construct…

Two miles of mountain does not "weigh down on you". As I said earlier, the alps are known to have very good rock. What this means is that it is, essentially, self supporting. You are not designing for two miles of overburden pressure, you are designing for maybe a couple diameter's worth of overburden.

If you read my comment history you'll realize that I work in the tunneling industry. I have designed, inspected, or helped construct large diameter hard rock tunnels, small diameter soil tunnels, and everything in between.

Re: Gotthard Base Tunnel

#20

Post by yrochat »

thom_nic wrote: post #13

TFA doesn't mention whether or how far the project is over budget or behind its original schedule. Does that mean it is on schedule and on budget? If so that's amazing. I'm used to constantly hearing stories like the "Big Dig" here in the US, sometimes it seems like every non-trivial civil works project fails massively fail on both criteria.

"The new Alpine railroad (NLFA) will cost 300M CHF less than planned, because the digging and concreting of the Gothard tunnel have cost less than expected.

The final bill is expected to be between 23 and 23.5 billions CHF instead of 24 millions CHF."

http://www.letemps.ch/suisse/2015/04/02/nouvelle-ligne-ferro...

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