How to detect lies with a storytelling technique • Hacker News Board

Re: How to detect lies with a storytelling technique

#31

Post by alexggordon » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 3:17 PM UTC

First off, I think this technique is completely true, in my own experience. However, I think this isn't the end-all lie detector, in that you have to know what to have the subject tell a story about.

Take the issue of national security (in the USA). To get a national security job, you'll have to go through a lie detector test[0], where they'll ask you a ton of questions. Say I'm lying about my name. Do you ask a story about my name? Say you ask about my childhood instead. If I was lying about my childhood, I'd tell stories that were as closely aligned with real life as possible, and change as few details as I needed to. A story about playing in the park in the summer with my parents doesn't change a whole lot if it's in North America or Europe.

Bottom line is, I think this method works, with the caveat that you have to know the event or thing that they would be lying about. Trying to find out if a spouse killed their significant other? Check, you can ask the stories around their alibi. Trying to figure out if James Bond is going to sell national secrets? What story are you going to ask about?

[0] http://federalnewsradio.com/federal-drive/2012/12/what-feder...

Re: How to detect lies with a storytelling technique

#32

Post by dang » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 3:21 PM UTC

I thought this had been discussed on HN earlier this year, but searching for it has failed me. I did find https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9061964, though, which looks interesting and related and got no attention.

Edit: I found it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10180728. Interesting and related and got lots of attention. But not a duplicate.

Re: How to detect lies with a storytelling technique

#33

Post by learc83 » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 3:22 PM UTC

mankyd wrote: post #22

caminante wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is easily ascribed to the fact that the liar is either making the story up as they go or are repeating a rehearsed lie. A truthful person can jump around easily because they are recounting distinct memories. Alternatively, the liar's experienced, good at his craft, and more capable of jumping around.

Certainly. It's not a perfect or fool proof method. Nothing is. It's simply a piece of evidence to look for.

That's the problem with this technique. The false positive rate is likely pretty high, and without knowing the prior probability that the person is lying, the technique could be worse than useless.

Re: How to detect lies with a storytelling technique

#34

Post by empath75 » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 3:23 PM UTC

What if the lie is just a minor detail embedded in an otherwise true story, though?

Re: How to detect lies with a storytelling technique

#35

Post by aluhut » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 3:25 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #26

caminante wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is easily ascribed to the fact that the liar is either making the story up as they go or are repeating a rehearsed lie. A truthful person can jump around easily because they are recounting distinct memories. Alternatively, the liar's experienced, good at his craft, and more capable of jumping around.

Only if they are aware of this technique and purposefully and skillfully prepare to defeat it. That turns out to be harder than you'd expect for methods like this. The methods used by Israeli security agents to profile travelers at airports have been well known for decades, but even so are still very effective.

How do you measure it it has been effective when the successful liar passes the test and is not defined as such?

Re: How to detect lies with a storytelling technique

#36

Post by caminante » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 3:28 PM UTC

mankyd wrote: post #22

caminante wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is easily ascribed to the fact that the liar is either making the story up as they go or are repeating a rehearsed lie. A truthful person can jump around easily because they are recounting distinct memories. Alternatively, the liar's experienced, good at his craft, and more capable of jumping around.

Certainly. It's not a perfect or fool proof method. Nothing is. It's simply a piece of evidence to look for.

For sure. I assume the detection technique works pretty well, even against "better" liars. That said, I've encountered folks that are so good at being slippery that you almost have to admire their skill.

Re: How to detect lies with a storytelling technique

#37

Post by learc83 » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 3:29 PM UTC

Hmm... My guess is that in a few years, we'll see the word frequency analysis being used by police as an investigative technique.

However just like with drug dogs, they'll ignore the high false positives and low prior probabilities.

Re: How to detect lies with a storytelling technique

#38

Post by mankyd » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 3:32 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #33

mankyd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly. It's not a perfect or fool proof method. Nothing is. It's simply a piece of evidence to look for.

That's the problem with this technique. The false positive rate is likely pretty high, and without knowing the prior probability that the person is lying, the technique could be worse than useless.

You would never convict someone of deceit based on any liar-detection methodology. They're simply tools used to warrant further investigation.

There will be truth-tellers who fail this test, but you find nothing conviction worthy. They'll be fine.

There will be liars who pass this test. Hopefully you catch them later by other means, just as you would have otherwise.

And of course, there will be those who pass who are never caught. This tool does not make that any worse.

Re: How to detect lies with a storytelling technique

#39

Post by agumonkey » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 3:32 PM UTC

caminante wrote: post #20

mankyd wrote: post #8

Read a book on this and this seems to corroborate much of what I read. One of the most interesting and simple techniques discussed was the order in which people recounted their stories. The example given is an employee who is consistently late for work. If you ask them to recount why they are late one day, a liar will tell you the story linearly: "I woke up, ate breakfast, hopped in the car, was on my way, minding my…

> This is easily ascribed to the fact that the liar is either making the story up as they go or are repeating a rehearsed lie. A truthful person can jump around easily because they are recounting distinct memories. Alternatively, the liar's experienced, good at his craft, and more capable of jumping around.

Anybody just a little bit "smart" and lying knows that one has to be subtle and non linear. Trying to convince is already failing.

Re: How to detect lies with a storytelling technique

#40

Post by Lawtonfogle » Wed, Oct 28, 2015, 3:40 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #15

>Morgan found that the use of these mnemonic props – open-ended questions about various sensations and sequences of events – dramatically increased memory recall about what had happened. The subject’s stories consequently became more and more complex, and richer in detail. Or at least, they did when people were telling the truth. When it came to the lies, even well-rehearsed ones, the subjects tended to falter and we…

I'm guessing it wouldn't. A memory doesn't exist as a single entity, and a false memory is often corrupting a couple real parts of memories, either overwriting (or outright adding) a small detail or mixing together real parts into something that didn't happen.

If someone was given a false memory of a traumatic experience, they likely have still experienced something similar to the faked traumatic experience (maybe saw it in a movie) and will have an actual part of a memory to feed greater details as someone dug into the memory.

A false memory of seeing a litter of puppies will still have plenty of real occurrences of seeing puppies to subconsciously draw upon.