Live data from Hacker News

Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

vox.com

151–160 of 325 posts

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#151

There are some interesting comments in here about how tough the struggle is for car dealerships, but I don't think that necessarily justifies their existence or mitigates the point of this article. If what the dealerships do is valuable enough to the customer, they would exist even without the ban on direct sales. But I think we can all intuit that if the ban were lifted, buying a car would be a very different (and b…

If what the dealerships do is valuable enough to the customer, they would exist even without the ban on direct sales.

Can you really make that assumption? Customers act selfishly, and game theory applies here.

For example, you try a shoe on in the store and then buy it online for less. The store provided something valuable to you, but you still bought the shoe online. Eventually the store will go out of business if many people do this, and we lose a valuable service because we each act in our own self interest.

It's not hard for me to imagine that protections could be good in some cases.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#152

"Don’t ever take a fence down until you know the reason why it was put up" You can't write a balanced article on car dealerships without researching why these laws were enacted in the first place. So many people here just assume "oh, it's because of greed" - but perhaps you should spend a short time first of all investigating why these laws were created and the problems they were trying to solve. Likewise, you can't…

> "Don’t ever take a fence down until you know the reason why it was put up"

I'm a big believer in Chesterton's Fence too, but what do you do about fences put up by someone who had no right to put it there? If someone erected a wall through the middle of your kitchen, would you have the same reticence to tear it down? The way I see it, the state has no right to enforce a ban like this, and we would be justified in ignoring and circumventing it.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#153
post #146
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. Yes, we could see the inventory of every Honda dealer in the region. And yes, we could exchange cars. However, the "requirement" that cars be swapped was something that managers told customers to ease their minds while they steered them towards a car that was on our lot. The only requirement was that both dealers had to agree on which cars were being swapped. Why tell them that? Because managers are loath…

> Customers hate having "mileage" on a new car I don't know why the swaps are driven. Why doesn't the dealer get a 1-ton truck and trailer, and haul the car to keep the odometer low? Oh, and the story about "Our swaps are gently driven by retirees" is bogus. I've been passed by those guys going 90 mph.

Now you've just taken a deal, which was probably worth $200, and made it even more expensive to execute. Not to mention, this is a customer who is already demanding enough to warrant a swap, so who's to say the demands won't increase once you've already sunk some cost into it. (See my note about swaps not being legally-binding until the sale.)

> Oh, and the story about...

Oh my goodness, salespeople absolutely abuse the cars. (For the record, I did not.)

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#154

There are some interesting comments in here about how tough the struggle is for car dealerships, but I don't think that necessarily justifies their existence or mitigates the point of this article. If what the dealerships do is valuable enough to the customer, they would exist even without the ban on direct sales. But I think we can all intuit that if the ban were lifted, buying a car would be a very different (and b…

If what the dealerships do is valuable enough to the customer, they would exist even without the ban on direct sales. Can you really make that assumption? Customers act selfishly, and game theory applies here. For example, you try a shoe on in the store and then buy it online for less. The store provided something valuable to you, but you still bought the shoe online. Eventually the store will go out of business if m…

Then other companies will realize that this is valuable and will let you try on multiple shoes and mail back the ones you don't like (Zappos/Amazon). This competition ends up being a net positive for the consumer.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#155
From time to time, I think the concept of car dealers has a lot in common with the RIAA model of the music industry.

The RIAA has a vested interest in keeping "direct to consumer" models sidelined, or, once enough critical mass is achieved, to bring that artist/group into the fold. In reality, the RIAA system spends a lot of money on behalf of artists/groups, in a similar notion that car dealerships are at the forefront for manufacturers and brand stability. Sometimes dealerships go bust, sometimes labels go bust...sometimes dealerships do so well they become multi-million dollar enterprises (Don Huffines in Texas...now State Senator Don Huffines), and same goes for record labels (Big Machine).

Both the dealership association and the RIAA push very hard in lobbying for their own ends. As can be seen in the music industry, fans nor artists haven't exactly jumped ship away from the RIAA system. There may be some similarities in the dealership scenario, but time will tell.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#156

"Don’t ever take a fence down until you know the reason why it was put up" You can't write a balanced article on car dealerships without researching why these laws were enacted in the first place. So many people here just assume "oh, it's because of greed" - but perhaps you should spend a short time first of all investigating why these laws were created and the problems they were trying to solve. Likewise, you can't…

We know why it was put up. This is not a mystery. It was lobbied for by car dealerships in order to procure monopoly status, under the guise of 'consumer protection.'

This is kind of a bullshit response, honestly. This is a very, very well plumbed, documented and reported on issue. The corollary to your statement about fences is:

"About which you do not know, be silent."

Car dealership laws may have served a purpose, but their primary purpose these days is to enrich car dealership owners:

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/02/19/172402376/why-b...

http://www.americanbar.org/publications/franchise_lawyer/201...

Their passing will be a net gain for the consumer.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#157
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Don’t ever take a fence down until you know the reason why it was put up" Why would you assume that such a fence was erected for a good reason and not out of malice or for personal gains?

That's the exact idea -- you don't know, so don't assume and do your research.

Yeah, but this is bullshit. We do know. The laws are garbage and should go the way of the dodo.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but there are some low hanging fruit that have not been attempted yet... in the following areas: Finance: - why can't I rent a car for a month and if I like it sign up for a year or two or three? If I want to own it, why can't I just convert to a purchase? These options are not fluid and interchangeable which necessitates much more of a "sale" rather than a more flexible, value oriented approach. A manufacturer…

> why can't I rent a car for a month and if I like it sign up for a year or two or three? You can, but if you don't buy it they now have a radically-devalued product they still need to sell. Some dealers experiment with this. Many of my customers had problems with buying a car with 100 miles on it "new". I can't remember the exact regulation, but at a certain mileage a car is no longer legally new. > trim levels are…

> within a few decades, negotiating over prices would end

It's interesting because often the trade-in value is mostly what is being negotiated, but the customer doesn't realize this. Or perhaps financing rate games are being played which the customer is unaware of.

I think many of the limitations come down to the way the car business is financed. Ford Motor Credit, for example, uses lease rates as an incentive to get more vehicles manufactured. So while the market rate for a customer might be 3.5%, there is 1% financing available for a limited time.

Similarly, Ford Motor Credit may prefer to incentivize leases vs purchases (or vice versa) because both look different on the company's books. There is arbitrage going on because the financing rate on a lease is partially due to the credit risk of the customer, and partially due to the residual price risk of the make/model/trim.

So the company may be happy to offer 0% financing on a sold vehicle, but only 2.9% on a lease, because the company keeps the residual price exposure.

This makes lease/purchase financings difficult to transform, because the accounting is only done relative to "new" vs "end of lease", so doing it on a vehicle someone rented for a month which has 2560 miles on is much more challenging, and the result of this is that the market value of the 1 day old "used" vehicle is often significantly below invoice, since when it is sold as used none of the new car incentives apply, lowering the value of the vehicle significantly, and disproportionately to miles driven, wear and tear, etc.

So I think it's ultimately that there is insufficient sophistication on the finance/accounting side to allow OEMs or dealers to have any incentive to keep 1 month old vehicles with 2560 miles on their books. With a small adjustment to price and warranty, the customer should be completely indifferent to this vehicle vs a new one.

I think this is a legacy of the car business as an assembly line where everything coming out of the "finished" end needs to be sold ASAP before it goes stale. Consumers likely want a much more services oriented approach b/c cars are typically more of a long term asset.

I think these are legacies of the core reason why the car companies went with the franchising model in the first place: It takes tons of capital to bring cars to market and sell/distribute them nationally, and there is a fair bit of risk too.

Re: Kill the laws that keep car dealers in business

#159
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the ban should be lifted. And I think car dealerships would survive without it. I recently spent some time on many car companies' websites and navigating the options is extremely difficult. They use all their marketing jargon like sDrive vs. xDrive or 4MATIC or whatever else other nonsense. They don't explain well what any of them mean, and I was left googling the definitions of everything. Then you get…

You're probably right. For example: Even though you can buy a Thinkpad directly from Lenovo, Best Buy still exists.

>Even though you can buy a Thinkpad directly from Lenovo, Best Buy still exists

For how long? It's a product an older generation that, for some reason or another, appreciates receiving the sales pitch. We're all tech savvy people here; go into Best Buy and start looking at computers. 4 out of 5 times you'll receive a sales pitch with, at least, a few elements of utter bullshit.

Meanwhile, the younger generation are becoming more and more comfortable with buy things online, sight unseen. The GP said it needs to see and feel options on a vehicle. I don't. I need to know what they do, and whether they work (information I can gather from reviews). In my experience, going and playing with something for a brief period of time at a dealership or store doesn't provide enough real world information, and I'm just as likely to make the wrong choice about a feature.

Post reply on HN