More parents, students saying 'no' to homework • Hacker News Board

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#171

Post by relaytheurgency » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 8:49 PM UTC

RogerL wrote: post #148

dgrant wrote: post #129

This is crazy, I don't know where I would be today if I hadn't done homework. Homework was where I really and truly learned. Independent work is so important, and it's totally different than doing something with a bunch of students in a classroom setting. Sure, the education system probably could be improved a lot. But you can't just remove homework from the current system and expect there will be no negative consequ…

There is a pretty wide gulf between no homework, ever, and the kinds of loads being placed on some kids. You talk about "a few" words a week. My friend's kids (I have none) end up staying up until 1am, forgoing family and friend time, just to keep up with the work demands. We invited a family to do something with us - the response was that they might be able to do something in 6 or so months due to the kids schedule.…

You know I hear this all the time, even from my students who I never gave much homework to when I was teaching. I wonder how much of that "time until 1 am" is spent staring at a cell phone. I know a lot of time in class is.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#172

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

guimarin wrote: post #136

guimarin wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your comment about better teachers. Teachers are simply a conduit for learning. They don't scale, which is why there is still a power-law distribution in educational outcomes despite tons or research and data and training and testing that should combat that. Basically rich people get richer because all rich people who are generationally consistently rich have one thing in common. They are autodidacts.…

And just to be clear. The answer for children is to make learning to love learning play. And the way to do that in a way that scales is through a video game. That is the future of education. Games for children that teach them how to learn, that they then use to set their own educational path. With teachers, schools, mentors, and advisors helping along the way.

They'll screw it up anyway.

I believe the core issue is just about agency: kids will enjoy and learn from anything and everything if they don't feel forced to do so. The best way to absolutely ruin a book? Make it a required reading in school. The best way to make a totally crap game that is neither fun nor educating? Make an educational game.

If you want to kids to learn and have fun at the same time, you have to accept the model of "entertainment first, education incidental" as opposed to "education in game's clothes". But that's hard to do because people assume, probably based on their own experience in the crappy school system, that learning must be about hard work. Yes, learning involves a lot of work, but it's not hard if you find it fun.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#173

Post by phlyingpenguin » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 8:54 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #37

The problem with homework is it's used as a form of accountability. My French teacher used to joke when collecting papers : "Ou est votre dette a la societe?" (Apologies for missing accents.) Of course what it should be is like at university. The professor can't spend all his time with you, so you get a rough list of what you should know about. It's then up to you to judge whether you need to read a bit more or a bit…

As a university level instructor, we still give homework and it's still a big part of the student's grades. It's still up to the student to decide if that's enough, but accountability is there. The students do not tend to ask themselves if they understand the material until they are in their later years of schooling.

I strongly dislike dealing with more homework so I tend to spot check and count participation in the exercise. Realizing that I only have three classes and not many students per class, I don't know how K-12 can possibly handle homework in any way but purely participation. They tend to have hundreds of students split among ~6 classes a day to deal with.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#174

Post by yawaramin » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #167

guimarin wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And just to be clear. The answer for children is to make learning to love learning play. And the way to do that in a way that scales is through a video game. That is the future of education. Games for children that teach them how to learn, that they then use to set their own educational path. With teachers, schools, mentors, and advisors helping along the way.

I blame video games for making me into a history buff. And maybe Legos, combined with the History Channel before it was the RedneckAliensJesus Channel. Civilization, Lords of the Realm, Caesar II, Robert E. Lee: Civil War General, Close Combat, Total War, Pirates!, Anno 1602, Europa Universalis/Crusader Kings/Victoria/Hearts of Iron, Age of Empires Or to go way back, Math/Word Rescue, Treasure Mountain, Midnight Resc…

Shoutout to the Encarta trivia game with the jester! That was the best.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#175

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

jy2947 wrote: post #138

unquietcode wrote: post #113

Let's not forget that the inhabitants of this website are almost certainly the kind of people who saw through the noise and got their education on their own terms. As we raise our kids we help them tip-toe around all this garbage, but most parents have no tools at their disposal to review and revise and push back against bad practices in their child's education. The issue of education in this country needs to be addr…

+1 I think the problem is not homework - it is there is no other reliable and affordable "better" alternative to homework or standard test. We can all argue that homework is taking away the time kids can otherwise spend on exercising, socializing, innovating etc, but truth is they are more likely just sitting there and playing their phones.

> but truth is they are more likely just sitting there and playing their phones

I might be in a minority here, but I have an issue with that sentiment. Because before phones, it was "playing video games". Before that, it was "watching TV". Before that, it was probably "wasting time outside" or "chit-chatting with friends". There's always something else that's "wasting time", even if that "wasting" is infinitely more useful than the activity deemed as "not wasteful".

I'm from the "watching TV" to "playing video games" transition generation and I must say that I owe more to both of them than to most time spent in school.

> there is no other reliable and affordable "better" alternative to homework or standard test

I agree with that though. Standarized tests and homeworks seem to me to be an artifact of an increasingly complex society. Some of that complexity may go away though, if we advance far enough to get rid of the job market entirely (UBI, automation, etc.) - it's competition that requires standarized grades so that people can be compared with each other.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#176

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #170

s_dev wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repetition is an important part of learning. Expecting all children to understand what was taught in class is unrealistic. This is why homework is assigned - so the student may take their time to review the parts they themselves didn't fully grasp in class. The time spent doing homework varies from child to child and this is important - kids who need longer to accomplish the same task will have that time because they…

> Arguably you could cover everything again the next day but thats hardly a graceful solution and doesn't cater to that variance of time needed for homework across different children as contact hours are very limited as it is. Repetition is important. But kids are already at school for 7-8 hours a day. If that is not enough time to engage in adequate repetition, the solution is not to shift work to home hours. It is:…

Exactly. School is a much better environment for repetition anyway - you can oversee students doing the chores and explain things to them individually if they get stuck. It also seems better to use the "high-grade" time (home) for learning new things and "low-grade" time (school) for repetitive chores.

If you have to assign something to them to do at home, stick to just making them read a book instead. Right now they have to do both, and there isn't enough time for that.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#177

Post by carb » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

betadreamer wrote: post #165

The real argument is not about whether we need homework or not. It's more about can you learn more than 7 hours or so a day? Kids are at school from 8-3 being taught by the teachers and then they have to spend an another 30min to 1hour at home. This is just too much. Homeworks are important. It's the only time that they can think by themselves and put what they learn in practice. But after being taught so long at sch…

30min to 1 hour of homework is too much? If they have seven periods a day and we assume they only average homework from each class once every few days, then the kids only have 20 minutes of homework per class. That should be the minimum for a homework assignment, not the maximum. Less time that than and no knowledge reinforcement is happening because the homework is too easy.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#178

Post by riot504 » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:05 PM UTC

gk_brown wrote: post #142

riot504 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sports teach kids about teamwork, working together, and how hard work pays off. I have found more use from what I learned in sports than any homework assignment.

And yet, most of the population won't end up making a living from their sporting accomplishments. However, they will get a job based on what they learned (or didn't learn) in school.

Did you not read what I wrote? The skill-set you need to succeed in the business world directly correlate with those in the sports. Homework assignments do not teach this.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#179

Post by Htsthbjig » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:06 PM UTC

I was extremely lucky in my work life, I am successful as entrepreneur and I believe it is because of the way I was raised as a kid in Spain.

When I went out of the school I was free to do whatever I wanted to do. I never did homework but was good student, not brilliant, because I considered the extra effort was not worth it, as the extra effort for better grades was not linear but exponential.

I took school seriously when I was in the school but when I am out, I am out. I rode my bike, I played soccer with my friends, I did swim in lakes or pools, I climbed mountains, I camped in the forest.

All those experiences gave me probably as much as the school and trained me for free environments.

I see the world as an environment I can change and I do routinely. Most people can't and I believe it is because they were trained to be good in controlled environments but just can't "think out of the box" because of their education that was so controlled.

I have seen miserable kids with not a single moment of freedom in their day. A girl of my class graduated with honors in the University, got tenure and suicided. She was miserable if she did not made perfect exams, her parents were like crazy "life is work and sacrifice" nazis.

They were not expected to choose their own paths, to make decisions, but were expected to follow others to be good guys.

Most of the best entrepreneurs I know of had problems in the school. Most of them wanted to do things on their own early on and the adult response was repression.

Re: More parents, students saying 'no' to homework

#180

Post by plonh » Tue, Oct 27, 2015, 9:08 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #72

jbob2000 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My significant other is a teacher and entered the workforce 2 years ago. I now firmly believe that the education system is the way it is because of the teachers, and not in a good way. The few who got into it because "they love children and teaching" are so massively outweighed by those who took it because there was nothing else. It's created a system that is center around Dear Teacher, a frustrated individual upset…

Bonus: A lot of elementary school teachers are there because they can't cut the math for some program they wanted and their college shunted them off into early education. These are, unfortunately, very often women. As a mathy woman who homeshooled my sons and spent considerable time getting my oldest over the math phobia school instilled in him, I harbor the opinion that sending math flunkies in droves to teach our c…

Indeed, I have read that women can be the most rigid and cruel sexists.