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Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS

wiki.csswg.org

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Re: Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS

#31

Post by Turing_Machine »

wodenokoto wrote: post #11
Turing_Machine wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea of using (at least) three separate languages (HTML, JavaScript, CSS) would seem weird if it were proposed de novo . Consider that LaTeX manages to carry out all of those functions (layout, styling, and computation) using only one language.

In your latex equation, you are missing where the data goes. The idea for html/css/js is that data goes into the html, layout and styling into CDs and interactivity is defined in JavaScript. That makes sense. The problem is that we never got anything close to that.

Hmm... I don't see any conceptual reason why separating those things should require completely different languages, though.

Re: Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS

#32

Post by kayamon »

hayksaakian wrote: post #28
kayamon wrote: post #21

This doesn't even address the fundemantal design flaw with CSS: (paraphrased badly from a quote by Casey Muratori) Layout is about the relationship between TWO THINGS. If you have a layout language that deals with only one thing at a time, then you have failed.

Html is tree structures right? Every element is default positioned relative to the previous element.

Uh, yes, I guess? That by itself is not especially useful.

That's not what a layout language is for. A layout language needs to be able to specify "A goes 10 px to the left of B".

Re: Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS

#33

Post by est »

hayksaakian wrote: post #28
kayamon wrote: post #21

This doesn't even address the fundemantal design flaw with CSS: (paraphrased badly from a quote by Casey Muratori) Layout is about the relationship between TWO THINGS. If you have a layout language that deals with only one thing at a time, then you have failed.

Html is tree structures right? Every element is default positioned relative to the previous element.

Unless if you think about it, layout is positioned in a 2D plane (with z-index, it's a 3D space, don't mention time), not a tree structure at all.

Re: Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS

#34

Post by epidemian »

kayamon wrote: post #21

This doesn't even address the fundemantal design flaw with CSS: (paraphrased badly from a quote by Casey Muratori) Layout is about the relationship between TWO THINGS. If you have a layout language that deals with only one thing at a time, then you have failed.

On a similar note, i think this Bret Victor quote captures the frustration of the CSS experience very well:

"CSS, a language for specifying visual appearance on the web, is … so complex that it has never been implemented correctly; yet, successive versions specify even more complexity. At the same time, it is so underpowered that many elementary graphic designs are impossible or prohibitively difficult, and context-sensitivity (or anything computational) must be addressed externally. Most CSS lore is dedicated to describing the tangles of brittle hacks needed to circumvent incompatibilities or approximate a desired appearance."

http://worrydream.com/MagicInk/#p255

Re: Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS

#35

Post by andrewmcwatters »

The term "blend mode" specifically refers to color blending. It isn't just "blending" nor does the addition of the word "mode" at the end of the property indicate some sort of redundancy in the attribute name.

This single slip up as an indicator of the author(s) not being familiar with a particular graphics industry term makes me question the validity of every other claim of "mistake" on the page.

> rgba() and hsla() should not exist, rgb() and hsl() should have gotten an optional fourth parameter instead (and the alpha value should have used the same format as R, G, and B or S and L).

Absolutely not. RGB is not RGBA. Perhaps the lack of robust rendering of webpages across most browsers is due to standards bodies, even lesser ones like csswg, not knowing anything about the fundamental graphics layers powering them.

Re: Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS

#36

Post by JoshTriplett »

mschuster91 wrote: post #5

> Box-sizing should be border-box by default. Didn't older versions of IE do precisely that, leading to endless frustration? I hate to say it but MS did something right for once.

> Didn't older versions of IE do precisely that, leading to endless frustration? I hate to say it but MS did something right for once.

Regardless of the model you prefer, browsers all need to adhere to the same model; that's the point of standardization. Whether Microsoft thought they had the right model or not, they selected a model that differed from the web standard.

Re: Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS

#37

Post by Camillo »

mschuster91 wrote: post #5

> Box-sizing should be border-box by default. Didn't older versions of IE do precisely that, leading to endless frustration? I hate to say it but MS did something right for once.

They were right on the object-level (they chose the superior layout mode), but wrong on the meta-level (they violated the standards process). At the time, the harm from the meta-level violation far outweighed the object-level improvement, to the point that it led to everyone else in the web design community teaming up against Microsoft and tearing down their dominant position.

Re: Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS

#38

Post by applecore »

est wrote: post #33
hayksaakian wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Html is tree structures right? Every element is default positioned relative to the previous element.

Unless if you think about it, layout is positioned in a 2D plane (with z-index, it's a 3D space, don't mention time), not a tree structure at all.

Except a tree structure is the only conceptual model that works for composing a user interface (out of simple, largely stateless components). See, for example, React and JSX.

Re: Incomplete List of Mistakes in the Design of CSS

#40

Post by antod »

gopowerranger wrote: post #25
Eric_WVGG wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always found it interesting that style tags were designed as , implying that new style standards could be introduced down the road. (for a while I thought might get real… oh sweet naivety)

The script type is a possibility but you have to make it work. I've forgotten the details.

Back in the day, IE4 supported both javascript and vbscript. And from memory if you installed other eg ActivePerl (and ActivePython too I think), you could use them as well.
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